Hand #1
Poker Stars $2/$4 Limit Omaha Hi/Lo - 6 players
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

Pre Flop: (1.5 SB) Hero is BB with 9 7 9 8
UTG calls, MP calls, CO raises, 2 folds, Hero calls, UTG calls, MP calls

Flop: (8.5 SB) T 6 2 (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP bets, CO raises, Hero calls, UTG calls, MP calls

Turn: (8.25 BB) 2 (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP checks, CO bets, Hero calls, UTG folds, MP calls

River: (11.25 BB) 3 (3 players)
Hero checks, MP checks, CO bets, Hero calls, MP folds

Hand #2
Poker Stars $2/$4 Limit Omaha Hi/Lo - 6 players
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

Pre Flop: (1.5 SB) Hero is MP with 4 A J J
UTG calls, Hero raises, CO calls, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG calls

Flop: (8.5 SB) 4 6 K (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, CO bets, BB calls, UTG calls




1st hand: how do u play that on flop and river?
2nd hand: Is it ok to peel here?

Hand 1

Preflop is ok. But, as dicey as the hand was to begin with, it's now getting even dicier on the flop. Yes, you have a three card wrap, but, a few of your outs are tainted because there's also a flush draw out there, too. Add to that, if you hit your straight w/a seven or an eight on the turn, you've already surrendered half the pot and you still have to dodge the river. Not a fan of this flop/fit but I would call one bet. I wouldn't keep peeling even if the turn brought a non spade low card; it's either I hit the nuts on the turn(preferably with a nine) or I'm out.

And, on the turn when the board pairs, this is an automatic fold. You don't know if someone's full, you don't have low backup(87 low is never good here, and even if you miraculously sucked out with it if/when someone else counterfeits, those are too many "ifs" and besides, the only way you'd even get to show that hand down is everyone checked the river) so, in a nutshell, there's no sound reason to stick around.

If(and its a big if) you had an overpair to the tens opposed to those two nines I'd understand the call a little bit more but it's really still just "meh." I fold the turn 100% here.

Hand2

I like the preflop raise especially in a 6 handed game. But, I don't like the peel on the flop.

Even those these two hands don't rank the same, you're pretty much in the same spot with both of them after the flop. What I mean is: Even though your second hand is good(and not a bad hand to preflop raise esp. with flush draws etc.) you have to be aware of what flop you're looking for. The pot is obv. bigger now in hand 2 due to the preflop raise, but should you peel? Do you have enough hand to peel? I'm not running any numbers(so I could be wrong) but I don't like it.

Hand 1 -- I probably fold it pre-flop. Not sure it's the mathematically correct play but it's a bad hand in bad position, and I think in most instances I will have difficulty playing a flop that appears favorable and will wind up continuing with it when I shouldn't under the masquerade of "pot odds". If I did call pre-flop, I am folding the flop after a bet and a raise.

Hand 2 -- I am giving it up on the flop.

Hand 1:

Fold preflop
As played, fold flop
As played, fold turn
As played fold river

Hand 2:

Meh preflop, can't really argue either way
Easy fold on flop

Hand 1: I would call preflop...but you're basically doing it to set-mine.

And definitely fold the flop. Even though you have a straight wrap, it really isn't a good draw. You hold 4 of your 12 straight cards. Of the remaining 8 cards, three make a flush and six make a low. Pretty easy fold tbh.

Also fold the turn. I would probably fold the river, and actually prefer a raise to a call since you have a mediocre hand both ways and a third player yet to act.

Hand 2: Preflop raise is good. Don't peel the flop; there's too many opponents for JJ to hold up for high, not good enough odds to draw to the running flush, and of course a low draw that has you counterfeited.

I also want to emphasize that I believe somewhat strongly that folding Hand #1 preflop is wrong. If you run the numbers against reasonable hand ranges, the hand has ~23% equity preflop, and you are getting 7-1. Of course it sucks that you are out of position. But in a limit game, position and reverse implied odds are almost never worth giving away more than 10% in equity.

A lot of people don't realize that 9987 is a significantly better hand than 9887 or 9877 in O8.

^ What kind of hand ranges are you using to get 23% preflop equity?

Bonus question: how much of that equity is in occasionally winning half the pot with the worst possible low hand, which you are never going to realize unless by accident?

If you give each limper a Top 30% range and the raiser a Top 10% range, you actually have 24% equity. And you only win the low about 1% of time (6,044 out of 600K simulations).

Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
HandEquity Scoops Wins Hi Ties Hi Wins Lo Ties Lo
9c9d7c8h 24.03% 88,598 192,206 3,670 6,044 501
30% 23.17% 66,361 123,813 15,090 71,433 45,951
30% 23.11% 66,168 123,675 14,938 70,665 46,150
10% 29.69% 85,013 135,823 16,483 118,981 61,576

OK, I know these stove results can be counterintuitive, but I don't see how this hand could be at 24% while a "top 30%" only has 23%. Does that imply OP hand is better than top 30%? Or just that the "top 30%" hands are sharing each other's outs because their characteristics are very similar to each other, and different than OP's? Would OP's hand actually do worse against a wider range of hands?

Yes, but only very slightly.

23% equity against 50%/40%/20% ranges:

Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
Hand Equity Scoops Wins Hi Ties Hi Wins Lo Ties Lo
9c9d7c8h 23.09% 85,415 182,396 5,228 6,753 852
50% 23.22% 67,693 127,363 12,723 77,737 30,397
40% 24.41% 70,787 128,900 13,384 86,430 34,908
20% 29.29% 84,742 139,179 13,648 124,093 41,443

21.6% against all random hands:

Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
Hand Equity Scoops Wins Hi Ties Hi Wins Lo Ties Lo
9c9d7c8h 21.59% 75,480 166,058 9,291 12,590 3,407
100% 26.08% 77,624 137,479 10,506 106,024 18,325
100% 26.23% 78,359 138,266 10,362 106,697 18,455
100% 26.11% 77,821 138,105 10,515 105,989 18,467

I don't believe though that it's a matter of simple hand equity pre-flop. There seem to be plenty of times where post-flop you think you hit but in reality are crushed yet continue to throw money into the pot. I think looking at just pre-flop equity is like assuming you can see everyone else's cards. I don't know, maybe in the long run it does work itself out if you are getting great pot odds later in the hand, but that seems unlikely to me. It seems you either have too many players for your hand to be any good, or you have too few players for pot odds.

Of course hand equity is not the only factor you should consider. As I mentioned above, your position and implied odds are poor.

Position and implied odds are probably the most important factors in making preflop decisions in a NL or PL game. But this is a limit game. A very large percentage of the final pot size is made up of bets preflop. And you are much less likely to fold away your equity on later streets. So in a limit game, preflop equity becomes a much more important factor.

If the decision according to the equities were at all close, I do think position and implied odds would push it toward a fold. But the equities do not indicate a close decision. You are getting 23-24% equity in a hand where you break even at 12%. You cannot just fold away >10% equity in a limit game and expect to make it back with good post flop decision making.

Can you give an example where this is true? Being able to simulate various hand ranges on various streets should make it less necessary to generalize about what "seems" to be true without evidence.

IMO hand 1 is a fold preflop, hands with pocket pairs often have decent equity but it's deceptive because your never going to realize it when your PP is good or when you backdoor two pair or a full house with trips on the board.

It's also a fold on the flop, there's only one really good card in the deck which is the 9.

Hand two is a standard PF raise and a snap fold on the flop.

hand 1: i think getting 7:1 pre, you have to call. yeah, you're technically not closing the action, but i think it's safe to assume that nobody's backraising. flop is the easiest of folds. cc'ing 2 is throwing money away. turn and river are throwing even more money away.

hand 2: well played pre, fold flop.

maybe you shoulds fold hand 1.... just never gonna be nutty enough and never gonna scoop. heads up, you could defend it, but 4 ways, there's too much of a rio factor.

Why is not worth investing 1 small bet for hand 2 on the flop getting huge odds and closing the action?

If you were playing Limit Omaha high-only, I think you have the odd to make a thin peel. You have 5 immediate outs (about 10%), plus about 5% high equity to draw to the runner-runner flush. Some of the time you will hit a set or trip 4's and nevertheless get beat. But the odds are good enough that if you were only concerned about the high side, you could fade that.

But the bigger problem is the low draw on board that you don't have. About half the time that you hit, the river will make a low and have to split the pot. So you not only have to discount your already small number of outs for the fact that you might get rivered (or already be beat), but also for the high likelihood that hitting and holding up only gives you half the pot. After factoring all that in, I think the call is a bit too thin.

It's two bets to hero on the flop.

Hand 1 I'd fold at every opportunity. Hand two I'd fold the flop

Hand 1 is def a flop fold. Your hand sucks. Hand two I can be talked into peeling but its thin.

This is definitely a really, really bad line of thinking on this type of hand/position. I would advise to not go with this line of thinking for sure.

Fold, fold, fold and fold first hand.
Fold flop second hand.

First hand, there is no low equity for the hand, so to extract the full 23% equity you have to stay to the river, like on this flop, and on this turn too to earn your scoops and splits. To extract your equity you will be freerolled often, drawing to a two outer often, forced to call multiple bets with a low and a flush or a low and a full house possible. To extract all your equity you will have to sometimes call capped bets on the river when a card like the 7 of spades comes, making a low and a flush and a full house possible.

To get your 23% equity of the preflop pot you will have to lose a small fortune in postflop betting.

I don't think you should literally fold every time you don't flop a set. What I meant was that you shouldn't continue just because you flopped a straight draw. More of the value of the hand is in the potential set value of 99 than in the potential straight draws. A lot of this is because a possible low is much less likely when you flop a set of 9's.

I fold the flop in both.

No, just no man. I know this is limit as opposed to NLO8 and PLO8 but this is just not a good line of thinking for hi/low. Omaha hi only sure this hand is more playable, but hi/low it is very, very, very bad. You have absolute garbage low draw, garbage flush draw and absolute garbage straight draw. If you hit your straight 56789 you are only getting half HU at best as someone is going to have low. In hi low we are playing to scoop or get 3/4 of all pots if possible. How much scoop ability does this hand have? Very little needing a perfect board to come.

If you are multiway you have a chance at getting more of the pot but you are oop and the action has been call, call, raise prior to it getting to you with potential to be OOP vs 3 people. I can continue to go on why this is bad, but these are just some of the reasons.

To clarify my 2 posts are only in regard to hand 1 with 9987 single suit.