Not going to get too in depth here on the hand. All I was hoping for was a little discussion on which player's actions were mistakes in the hand and if both were mistakes then which player made the biggest mistake.

10-20 O-8 full table but all of a sudden everyone sitting out and down to 5 handed game, UTG raises, I'm in next seat and 3bet KKJ5 double suited. All fold to BB who cold calls
A339 (one ace suited).

UTG capped the betting but again, his actions don't really matter for this hand. I am more concerned with the
big blind's play along with my own PREFLOP. The rest of the hand really has no bearing either.

I would rate your play as a bigger mistake. Assuming you get HU against UTG with your raise, do you think your hand is a favorite? Raising to push others out of the hand makes sense if you have a hand that plays better HU than against many, but KKJ5ds is not that kind of hand IMO.
Calling two cold with A339s is kind of loose, but less bad than your play.

You have the type of hand where for the most part, you are bluffing to start - and either hoping to win the hand with a lucky flop, or by continuing to put on pressure and bluffing through a win.

Do you feel like poker is a game where you should try to win every hand?

Are you on a limited time schedule where you can only play 10 hands, so you want to create action and 'get lucky' to steal a small pot & quit?

Do you think that if you can win a pot with a bad hand it means you have bigger cajones than the other players?

Or, are you just a clueless, bad player who thinks that a pair of kings with no low draw is a premium hand in limit hi/lo?

To answer your questions.

A) you should usually fold

B) you made the biggest mistake

C) if you won it, good for you - it will persuade you to continue to get your money in with trash and people who play decent poker will get it eventually, which is where it belongs.

Next question?

Omahahahaha - When I read your question, I wondered who had the better starting hand in a three handed contest when both hands were involved.

But of course that depends on the cards in the third hand.

UTG raises. Is UTG more likely than not to have an ace for the raise? Is UTG more likely to have an ace than a king for the raise?

I think the answer is yes.

At any rate, I ran two simulations, both three handed. In the first sim, I gave UTG an ace, specficially:<ul type="square">
BB: A,3,3,9
UTG: A,blank,blank,blank
Hero: K,K,J,5[/list]In the second sim, I gave BB and Hero the same hands as above, but gave UTG four blanks.

As you might have guessed, Hero is substantially ahead in the first sim but behind in the second.

I think UTG's play indicates he probably has an ace (as does Hero's), and therefore BB is probably behind as the cards lie. And cold calling a double bet seems somehow poor. But there is merit in defending your big blind. (I think it deters attacks on your future blinds and also tends to reduce aggressive behavior against you in other circumstances when you are not in the big blind). If by calling, BB can get you to believe you can't knock him out by making it two bets, then maybe next time you'll be less likely to make it two bets.

In other words, I think the way you play the current hand has a very big effect on the way some of your opponents play against you in the future. If that is part of BB's thinking, then I can understand biting the bullet and calling the double bet.

But on the basis of BB's cards alone, I don't like his call of the double bet at all. (BB has a playable, but not very good starting hand - the pair of treys stink, as does the dangler nine). Or if BB is calling because he thinks he's getting a discount, or because he thinks the money he has posted is his, then I don't like his call at all.

Your own starting hand is only marginally playable, in my humble opinion. It is thus a worse starting hand than A339 with a suited ace. Moreover, I like it better for multiple opponent play than for heads-up play. But by raising with it, you add value to future hands where you will be raising with a stronger hand.

You have a type of starting hand such that some opponents will tend to criticize you for your raise when you win and will also tend to criticize you if you criticize them. (I suspect one or the other of those led to this post by you).

I don't think either of you necessarily made a "mistake" here. However, with all its flaws, I do like your hand better (than A339s) for three handed play involving a third opponent who is likely to have a hand with an ace. And you have position on BB. The edge is with you.

Buzz

Edit: I was composing my reply when 1MoreFish4U posted. Thus I did not read his reply first.

I agree with what he wrote in the first paragraph. And then, although I would not have expressed them as harshly, I can understand and appreciate his other rhetorical questions and comments. (No offense intended, 1MoreFish4U).

I think how best to play depends a lot on your opponents. And you can take some action thinking one way and have that seem like the correct action to an observer, but do the same thing thinking another way and have that seem incorrect to the same observer.

I don't know if I'm expressing my thoughts clearly enough to make sense. My apologies if they don't.

Buzz

Double suited big pairs like this have been marginal or unprofitable in my stats. I think one of my biggest leaks was playing doublesuited junk too much just because it was shorthanded. I'd fold preflop.

Your play is the worst.

BB's play is usually marginal but totally standard for most players.

If I'm reading this right, you tried to isolate an UTG raiser with a one way hand that contained a totally worthless dangler, a hand that contained the second best pair, and was drawing at the second best flush both ways. Most of the time you'll be 50-50 against UTG preflop and....look, this is just bad. Terrible even. Players still behind you, your hand sucks, bleh. Dont do this.



-Tex

Your preflop play is the biggest mistake. I think BB's play is questionable.

Stranded big pairs suck in O8.

taking a flop with A3s 3-handed sounds pretty standard to me. it may be a sub-optimal play, but i think most 10/20 players are taking one off here.

i rarely take KKxx with a dangler into a heads-up battle in any form of O8, too hard to play post-flop and too much of a reverse-implied odds hand like making a 2nd nut flush or making a set when a low is possible.

i'd probably prefer jank like 4568r over KKJ5ds in this spot.

i had aa33, [censored], and you spiked a king

(Facial Abuse - I don't know what this has to do with Omahahaha's original hypothetical question regarding A339s, or Dave's reply to which you responded. Are we to presume you were the BB to which Omahahaha referred and that you are now asserting that he reported your hand incorrectly? If you want to call the original poster names, please choose another place to do so - and please not on this forum at all.)-Buzz

Post-flop, who do you think is more likely to make more expensive mistakes- A3s-crap-crap or KKJs-blank?

Buzz, I'm pretty sure he was just trying to either make a bad joke, or doesn't give a damn. I can almost guarantee you that his comment had nothing to do with the thread. I read it as his attempt to be clever and respond to the reply, out of context

im 90% sure I was the one in the hand, cause I gave him a lecture immediately, can he verify?

Well, then I owe you my apologies. I read this as an out-of-left-field reply (the kind that I like to make).

Buzz was correct in that you could dial back the viterol of the reply- tough to read it in a joking manner, though if the guy knows you....

"(Facial Abuse - I don't know what this has to do with Omahahaha's original hypothetical question regarding A339s, or Dave's reply to which you responded. Are we to presume you were the BB to which Omahahaha referred and that you are now asserting that he reported your hand incorrectly? If you want to call the original poster names, please choose another place to do so - and please not on this forum at all.)-Buzz "

I think that you look at the board with the "threaded" option, while facialabuse (and I) look at it "flat". He was responding to the original poster, but did so by "replying" to the most recent post (the bottom one on the "flat" screen), which just happened to be David Breal.

Thanks, Jim - I also look at the board "flat" - but when I respond to a thread, I respond directly under the person to whom I direct my reply.

I realize others can also read my reply, but it's almost always directed as a reply to some particular individual, in more or less direct response to what that individual wrote. Nothing wrong with writing a reply at the end of a thread to a post in the middle of it. But in the case to which you're referring, it wasn't crystal clear to me to whom the post was directed.

This forum has an automatic filter that replaces many known four letter words with "[censored]" The word I censored wasn't filtered, and was not even as bad as a word I might use myself to a friend. But it seemed inappropriate in this forum.

I haven't read many of Lottery Larry's posts, but I don't want anybody calling him a "dick" on this forum. And whether you agree with Davebreal or not, in my humble opinion, he is a valued poster on this forum and has been very helpful to me on occasion. I certainly don't want anyone calling him a "dick," although I'm sure he'd take it laughingly in stride.

I never wanted to be a hall monitor in high school or a cop when I graduated from college. But that's the sort of role I took on when I agreed to temporarily fill in for Felicia, the regular (and excellent) moderator of this forum, while she hopefully recovers.

Anyhow, thanks to you, Jim, for your kind explanation.

Buzz

somebody tell me how A33x with the Ace suited is horrible here? not 100% optimal but not terrible in my opinion.

Yeah, I really have no idea if calling in the BB here with A339ss is correct or not, whereas playing KKJ5 seems like a clear mistake.

Unreal bump!

that's just weird lol

Do you often lecture people after they make horrible plays in hopes that they dont make them again? Seems -ev.

what the hell? you know he wrote that like 7 years ago, right?

Interesting bump.

I follow the ProPokerTools convention of using parentheses to enclose cards of the same suit when not specifying the particular suit.

I don't think (A3)X3 or (AX)33 are horrible starting hands in a five-handed game.
I don't think (KJ)(K5) is a horrible starting hand in a five-handed game either.

I don't think (A3)X3 !2 !AA is a horrible starting hand either. (!2 means X cannot be a deuce. !AA means X cannot be an ace).

Two of the three actual hands involved were (A3)93 and (KJ)(K5).

Which is the better starting hand of the two in a five handed game? (I think it's a toss-up, a coin flip).

If just those two hands were involved (one on one) I think which hand is ahead depends on whether the flush draw of the suited ace hand is the same suit as one of the flush draws of the double suited kings hand. If it is, then the suited ace hand is ahead. If it isn't, then the double suited kings hand is ahead. At any rate, those two hands are pretty close if they're the only two hands involved.

But if there's a third hand involved, and if that third hand has an ace, then the double suited kings hand is ahead of the suited ace hand.

I wrote my reply to omahahahaha. I didn't think omahahahaha was a newb. (The year was 2007. niss didn't come up with the idea of a newb's thread until 2010, or at least he didn't express the idea to me until 2010).

Somewhere in the newb's thread I wrote a simple starting hand guide for newbs. My intention was to write a KISS (keep it simple, stupid) list of starting hands for newbs. I think I included hands with a suited ace plus a three in that keep it simple starting hand list... and I would not have included double suited kings hands in that list intended for newbs.

But omahahahaha was not a newb.

At the time omahahahaha started this thread he had been posting on this forum for three or four years. (He posted on this forum for a total of about seven years. Then about three years ago he stopped posting). At any rate, I didn't think of omahahahaha as a beginner and consequently I didn't give him beginner type advice. (Or at least that was not my intent).

My response to omahahahaha was more musing... interesting that a third hand with an ace would rather substantially upset the balance in favor of the double suited kings hand.

Meh. Something to think about if you're not a newb... lots of levels in this game.

Buzz

Nope... search function got me there... really should have checked the date apologies.

However Buzz's post may have made it worth it.

you. kkj5 is an auto fold.

Sick bump.

KKJ5 ds 3 bet. Long run meta game and gotta ensure you have board coverage post flop when the flop comes J59