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-20 FLO8: Jam top two and nut low draw? -20 FLO8: Jam top two and nut low draw?

12-16-2014 , 02:30 PM
$10-20 FLO8 on Bovada (6 max)

Pretty new to the table so no major reads, unfortunately. Also sorry if my Hand History format sucks, had to type it up from memory.

Hero has A36T in sb.

Folds to CO who raises, Button calls, Hero calls, bb calls.

Flop: T 2 6 (Pot: 7.7 small bets)
Hero checks, BB bets, CO calls, Button calls, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, CO calls, Button calls, Hero calls.

Turn: T 2 6 K (Pot: 9.85 big bets)
Hero checks, BB bets, CO folds, Button calls, Hero calls.

River: Turn: T 2 6 K 7 (Pot: 13.85 big bets)
Hero bets, BB calls, Button Calls

Thoughts on all streets welcome... especially the flop and river. Thanks!

Last edited by tuds38; 12-16-2014 at 02:37 PM.
-20 FLO8: Jam top two and nut low draw? Quote
12-16-2014 , 04:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuds38
$10-20 FLO8 on Bovada (6 max)

Pretty new to the table so no major reads, unfortunately. Also sorry if my Hand History format sucks, had to type it up from memory.
Your hand history format is fine.

Quote:
Hero has A36T in sb.
Seems very playable to me... lacks high card strength, but very playable.

Quote:
Folds to CO who raises, Button calls, Hero calls,
OK.

Quote:
bb calls.

Flop: T 2 6 (Pot: 7.7 small bets)
Hero checks, BB bets, CO calls, Button calls, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, CO calls, Button calls, Hero calls.
I always wonder why people do what they do. That's true of every phase of my life, not just poker... But specifically here I wonder why BB makes it three bets. I think "dominance" plays an important part in the actions of some individuals at the poker table.

Specifically I wonder if BB makes it three bets simply because he wants to dominate the table. (Or does he have a premium starting hand... or does he have TT** with a low draw?).

I also wonder why Hero check/raises. (I think your check/raise is fine, depending on your reason for three-betting).

Quote:
Turn: T 2 6 K (Pot: 9.85 big bets)
Hero checks,
OK.

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BB bets, CO folds, Button calls, Hero calls.
OK.

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River: Turn: T 2 6 K 7 (Pot: 13.85 big bets)
Hero bets,
OK. You may be getting quartered here, but the bet is fine.

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BB calls, Button Calls
Good. We can see what cards they held and perhaps supply reasons for the three-bet on the flop by BB, the passive play by Button, and the call down by both.

Quote:
Thoughts on all streets welcome... especially the flop and river. Thanks!
Given above. We need to know their cards to understand their actions.

Buzz

Last edited by Buzz; 12-17-2014 at 06:05 AM.
-20 FLO8: Jam top two and nut low draw? Quote
12-16-2014 , 04:28 PM
I wasn't sure if I should post the results of the hand or not, here goes:

Board was T 2 6 K 7

Hero had - A 3 6 T
Big Blind had - A 3 5 T
Button had - A 3 7 9

So my T's up held for high, 3-way chop for low. Big Blind was blasting with nut low draw w/ backup, top pair, and gutshot. Do you think he was 3-betting to thin the field or for value?

In hindsight I had 51% equity on the flop and 60% on the turn so I guess I missed some bets against these specific hands, but seems like a tough spot to keep the pedal down without reads.

If I chose to cap on the flop should I still be checking that turn unimproved?

My reason for check-raising the flop was to get more money in the pot, basically. With a 4-way pot and top 2-pair on a disconnected rainbow flop I actually thought it was pretty close to ideal. The only turn I really hate to see is a 3 or a 2, and given my aggression I might even be able to get a free river or check-raise turn depending on the turn card. Once BB 3-bets that latter part of the plan is probably out of the window, but that was the idea.

Last edited by tuds38; 12-16-2014 at 04:36 PM.
-20 FLO8: Jam top two and nut low draw? Quote
12-16-2014 , 06:53 PM
I like it fine, but I probably would have capped the flop. Especially in an online 6-max game which I have to assume is going to be a lot more aggressive than a typical live full ring game.
-20 FLO8: Jam top two and nut low draw? Quote
12-16-2014 , 10:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuds38
I wasn't sure if I should post the results of the hand or not,
Showing results works pretty well if you put them under a spoiler, like this:
Spoiler:


Board was T 2 6 K 7

Hero had - A 3 6 T
Big Blind had - A 3 5 T
Button had - A 3 7 9

Quote:
So my T's up held for high, 3-way chop for low. Big Blind was blasting with nut low draw w/ backup, top pair, and gutshot. Do you think he was 3-betting to thin the field or for value?
Those two reasons make logical sense, but I think there's another reason why people 3-bet. I think maybe he got caught up in his ego and wanted to assert dominance.

It's one of those things your opponent, BB, may not realize himself. If you asked him, he might rationalize his behavior, believing he was making it three bets because he felt safe betting the nut low draw plus top pair... that he was betting because he had the best hand.

Quote:
In hindsight I had 51% equity on the flop and 60% on the turn so I guess I missed some bets against these specific hands, but seems like a tough spot to keep the pedal down without reads.
You played fine.

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If I chose to cap on the flop should I still be checking that turn unimproved?
Why would you choose to cap the flop? You flopped two pair plus the nut low draw without counterfeit protection. BB flopped top pair plus the nut low draw with counterfeit protection. On this occasion counterfeit protection was not needed, but on another occasion counterfeit protection might be needed. The king on the turn enabled a higher two pair. On this occasion nobody happened to have a king, but on another occasion someone might. BB, in my opinion, did not play this hand well. BB, in my opinion, played too aggressively. BB, in my opinion, looks like he may be using Texas hold 'em techniques to play Omaha-8.

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My reason for check-raising the flop was to get more money in the pot, basically.
That's a reason frequently given.

But if you wanted to get more money in the pot, wouldn't it be generally better if you waited until the third betting round to check/raise? Don't opponents generally back away from you... checking the turn to you rather than betting the turn after you have check/raised the flop?

(Obviously in this case, against this BB, that didn't happen).

Quote:
With a 4-way pot and top 2-pair on a disconnected rainbow flop I actually thought it was pretty close to ideal.
Your hand looked good after the flop and before the turn... until BB made it three bets to your check/raise. In your shoes, I'd have immediately silently asked myself (in my mind), "Why did BB do that?"

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The only turn I really hate to see is a 3 or a 2, and given my aggression I might even be able to get a free river or check-raise turn depending on the turn card. Once BB 3-bets that latter part of the plan is probably out of the window, but that was the idea.
I see. Your plan makes good sense to me. Thus your flop check/raise looks fine to me.

Buzz
-20 FLO8: Jam top two and nut low draw? Quote
12-17-2014 , 12:39 AM
Cap flop, you easily have the best hand, TT/66/22 makes up a very small part of villian's range.
-20 FLO8: Jam top two and nut low draw? Quote
12-17-2014 , 06:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Yu
Cap flop, you easily have the best hand, TT/66/22 makes up a very small part of villian's range.
Hero probably does have the best hand after this flop, and I think TT/66/22 probably makes up a very small part of villian's range.

Quote:
But if you wanted to get more money in the pot, wouldn't it be generally better if you waited until the third betting round to check/raise? Don't opponents generally back away from you... checking the turn to you rather than betting the turn after you have check/raised the flop?
(I would have bet the flop directly, and then things would have been a bit different).

But, as I think about it, since Hero has already let the cat out of the bag by check/raising, capping on the second betting round seems OK to me.

Buzz
-20 FLO8: Jam top two and nut low draw? Quote
12-17-2014 , 08:26 PM
Three bet pre and just keep shoveling chips towards the middle.

Any hand that I'm willing to call a raise with from the sb, I actually prefer to reraise it.

A checkraise on the flop is fine because rarely are flops checked around, but I don't like a checkraise on the turn nearly as much because A)often players raise the flop just to get a free turn card and B) you lose massive value when no one bets and C)not having substantial reads on the players makes it difficult to know if a checkraise is even going to work. That's why I always go for the sure thing whenever I am unsure of my opponents.
-20 FLO8: Jam top two and nut low draw? Quote
02-02-2015 , 02:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rush17
Three bet pre and just keep shoveling chips towards the middle.

Any hand that I'm willing to call a raise with from the sb, I actually prefer to reraise it.
this looks pretty spewy and bad.

pre is standard. jam flop. as played, donk/call turn, and donk river.
-20 FLO8: Jam top two and nut low draw? Quote
02-02-2015 , 04:23 PM
Call pre>3bet 55%/45%. Bet flop in any event with plans to 3bet/bet turn/bet river. As played cap flop. BB looks like A346, A34T, A345. Button looks like A3. CO looks like A456. All your bets are for value. C/R river is good here. BB is betting anything on the river he was betting turn. Still looks like you have best here. Plus it's the old Bryce FU factor.
-20 FLO8: Jam top two and nut low draw? Quote
02-07-2015 , 12:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveistheman84
this looks pretty spewy and bad.

pre is standard. jam flop. as played, donk/call turn, and donk river.
Raising, in general, is better than calling, and, it won't make something that was "standard" play turn into something that is now "spewy and just plain bad". It can't.

Raising one more small bet preflop to either charge the big blind a bigger premium and/or giving ourselves a better shot at actually scooping this hand when we make hands other than "nut low, top pair" is huge. Have you ever scooped a pot with tens and threes? Or just with a pair of tens? I scoop quite a few pots like those ~mediocre hands when its HU and the board runs out dry. Three handed? Not likely to happen. I'm not saying that you should always be three betting this, but in this spot, how you play from the blinds is important. Yes, being OOP sucks, but so does raising in position and then getting reraised by someone OOP who then donks into a whole myraid of flops that you won't feel good about continuing on.

if/when the big blind does come along(and even when he doesn't) this isn't an automatic full steam ahead either...there's always Plan B and sometimes you just have to surrender to Plan B. But those are bridges that we haven't gotten to yet.

Last edited by Rush17; 02-07-2015 at 01:02 PM.
-20 FLO8: Jam top two and nut low draw? Quote
02-09-2015 , 01:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rush17
Raising, in general, is better than calling, and, it won't make something that was "standard" play turn into something that is now "spewy and just plain bad". It can't..
I like your thinking if the button had folded, but the CO raised and Button called, so a 3-bet is basically giving the Big Blind 5:1 to call assuming CO and Button both call rather than cap. Are there really many hands that he folds here that weren't already folding to the raise? Even if BB bails fearing a cap or something, it's almost definitely still going to be 3-handed. Was this still your intention or did you think a raise could get it HU?

If you change the A36T to something like A34T or A36K I am probably pumping it, though.
-20 FLO8: Jam top two and nut low draw? Quote
02-09-2015 , 06:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuds38
I like your thinking if the button had folded, but the CO raised and Button called, so a 3-bet is basically giving the Big Blind 5:1 to call assuming CO and Button both call rather than cap. Are there really many hands that he folds here that weren't already folding to the raise? Even if BB bails fearing a cap or something, it's almost definitely still going to be 3-handed. Was this still your intention or did you think a raise could get it HU?

If you change the A36T to something like A34T or A36K I am probably pumping it, though.

"I'll take READING COMPREHENSION for $200, Alec."

I did think the button had folded and my thoughts were obv. based on thinking that we could get this hand HU if we put added pressure on the big blind, so, seeing that this will already be a three-handed pot, yes, I'm not raising. But, as you said, had our hand been a ~little bit stronger, I would be raising.
-20 FLO8: Jam top two and nut low draw? Quote

      
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