WSOP $1,500 PLO8 hand - NLD+2p vs. raise & cold call - Omaha 8 Poker Forum

blinds are 50/100, effective stack is ~9,000

CO is a bad LAG, have seen him open pre with hands like A76J and i think he values hands in holdem terms vs O8 terms

SB just sat down, but looks like a loose passive station

CO opens to 300
SB calls
I call with A

Flop (975)
4

SB checks
I check with the plan to CR and set up a shove OTT because the flop texture seems like such that someone like CO should stab at it more often than not
CO checks

Turn (975)
4

SB ponders for a while but checks
I lead 775
CO raises to 2,300
SB cold-calls
I have ~8,000 behind with NLD+bad 2 pair. What's my turn & river plan?

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07-19-2016 , 07:28 PM

deadpeddler

grinder

Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 520

Call and try to hit a low..

Jam any non club 8763 rivers, check fold when you brick and check decide if you make the full house, but CO lines looks a lot like a set/ Jack Ten(especially if he values hands like holdem) so even if you fill up consider check folding if he makes a big bet IMO..

I wouldn't try to bluff any high cards or club rivers bec. that hits CO range a lot more than ours..

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07-20-2016 , 09:27 PM

WINNINGSTEK

adept

Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 887

I call too...

I imagine CO made jacks up (or a set of jacks) and small blind is on some kind of wheel draw with a weak flush draw...

On river i lead out big if I make the low. On a ten or a four I'd hate life. Try and soul read I guess.

Either way, with the pot odds you're getting, you have to call OTT.

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07-20-2016 , 09:35 PM

amok

veteran

Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 3,253

I think shoving is interesting, but calling is probably better. As pointed out, lead to a low but check if you fill up.

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07-20-2016 , 11:45 PM

greybeard33

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 523

I'm intrigued by shoving too, but obv understand why you might not want to in a $1500 WSOP tournament.

I would be surprised that villain as described - and a bad one at that - would check an overpair or even JT when checked to him. For sure JJ and JT are in his range, but I think I'd weight more towards a KQ-wrap type hand. Because of that and the cold-calling SB, I think I'd hate to see an A/2 more than a 4/T.

Anyway, agree with calling/leading as mentioned previously, and I'd c/c a 4 and probably a T too on the river, but could c/f to a huge bet (maybe that's why I'm more intrigued by shoving).

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07-21-2016 , 12:58 AM

Hurp Durpington

Owlpert

Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 32,509

thanks guys. my first instinct was indeed to shove for value and perhaps force out the SB out but I didn't realize how shallow and little FE I realistically had. Looking back at the situation now in this tourney spot it's just a simple NL+pot oddz call.

Would you guys like a shove better if we were like 150 BBs deep but still in a tournament setting?

i think we have to play pokah and read some souls if a 4 or a T came out. probably lean towards a fold on a T for sure

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07-21-2016 , 01:11 AM

Hurp Durpington

Owlpert

Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 32,509

btw if we were deeper and had better reads i think we can consider folding. It's not hard to construct realistic ranges where you have 20%> equity even though our absolute hand strength is pretty good

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07-21-2016 , 10:22 AM

greybeard33

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 523

I think I like shoving with current stacks because you have less than a pot-sized bet once you call turn, so can you really fold 4/T/A getting over 2:1? If you're 75% sure he has JJ then sigh/fold I guess.

With deeper stacks I think you can wait for better spots so agree with folding. Easy to imagine scenarios where you're getting quartered so goodbye 1/3 of stack even when you hit your nut low.

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07-21-2016 , 01:35 PM

deadpeddler

grinder

Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 520

it's early and we still have 65 Bigs if we have to call and check fold a bad river... and CO isn't bet folding often and 10s and 4s seldom good now.
Ace seems easy fold because CO has Broadway and small blind has wheel so often.

In game 10 and 4 are cry calls in reality(mine at least), but easy to say in a forum that we should check fold...

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07-21-2016 , 02:31 PM

#10

Hurp Durpington

Owlpert

Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 32,509

not that it matters much but in real time I thought and shoved and got snap called in both spots

Spoiler:

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07-21-2016 , 03:23 PM

#11

deadpeddler

grinder

Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 520

river?

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07-21-2016 , 04:05 PM

#12

Hurp Durpington

Owlpert

Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 32,509

I'm rethinking that folding is ever good in this spot because of the live spaz/fish factor. gotta give yourself like 5% in theoretical equity for the possibilty of one of them showing up with nonsense like A39J..

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07-21-2016 , 04:15 PM

#13

Donk Quixote

old hand

Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 1,311

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hurp Durpington

Doesn't that match up with your read perfectly though? Playing AJ like top pair in hold em on J-high board, with the bonus of 2nd nut low draw...

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07-21-2016 , 04:41 PM

#14

Hurp Durpington

Owlpert

Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 32,509

i suppose so although I was thinking more JT+

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07-22-2016 , 10:20 AM

#15

spimp13

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 5,953

Based on the action on the turn shoving would be pretty bad imo. Flat the turn and lead any low non club.

An interesting scenario would be if a low club comes and it goes check/check and the cutoff bets pot and sb flats. Then what? Probably sigh/fold as it looks like we are getting quartered unless we have a big read on sb thinking they would overvalue A3/A4 type of hands.

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07-22-2016 , 12:09 PM

#16

Omahaha

veteran

Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 2,616

I think we should be betting flop and the hand becomes much easier to play if we do.

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07-22-2016 , 12:14 PM

#17

spimp13

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 5,953

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omahaha

I think we should be betting flop and the hand becomes much easier to play if we do.

Yeah +1. He mentioned he planned on c/r the cutoff but since cutoffs range is wider there is a good chance he will check back flops like this. I like the idea of leading here.

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07-22-2016 , 12:47 PM

#18

deadpeddler

grinder

Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 520

Quote:

Originally Posted by spimp13

In that scenario, there would 7900+23700=31600, so doesn't seem like we can sigh fold really,

we will have 8000 in our stack if we sigh fold and 7800ish in our stack if we get quartered, so if our low is ever good for 1/2 this is an autocall. Someone correct me if my math is wrong here.

Can only really considering check folding low club rivers if we have a read that they both have A2 and we will only get 1/6th... which doesn't seem to be the case with described villians.

since we will have to call off any low anyway, would rather blast the low club river, maybe we can get CO to fold a set and Small blind to call with a worse Ace 2 type hand and we can get 3/4

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07-22-2016 , 01:28 PM

#19

greybeard33

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 523

Quote:

Originally Posted by deadpeddler

Don't we only have 6400 behind after calling turn? So 7900+19200=27100. Still 6800 if we get quartered, so I don't think it changes our play that much. Even if we are 80% sure we're getting quartered, still makes it a call.

Quote:

Originally Posted by deadpeddler

since we will have to call off any low anyway, would rather blast the low club river, maybe we can get CO to fold a set and Small blind to call with a worse Ace 2 type hand and we can get 3/4

Only if SB doesn't have clubs, which I thought we were assuming he does (I was anyway). I don't think it's terrible to blast the low club river anyway since we're calling, but I don't think we're getting 3/4 too often; just hoping to get 2nd nut lows to call.

Last edited by greybeard33; 07-22-2016 at 01:33 PM.

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07-22-2016 , 01:33 PM

#20

deadpeddler

grinder

Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 520

Quote:

Originally Posted by greybeard33

Yea, you are right Grey, my math is off.. more of a feel player

.

since we are going to have to call off might as well jam it ourselves and hopefully someone else can make a mistake..

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07-22-2016 , 01:45 PM

#21

greybeard33

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 523

Quote:

Originally Posted by deadpeddler

Yea, you are right Grey, my math is off.. more of a feel player

.

since we are going to have to call off might as well jam it ourselves and hopefully someone else can make a mistake..

Too cold-hearted - no feelings from me

I guess I'd be worried that our LAG CO won't get it in with his non-nut hands if we lead. Although I would certainly think SB is going to lead here with nut flush, so probably a moot point.

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07-22-2016 , 02:02 PM

#22

deadpeddler

grinder

Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 520

Quote:

Originally Posted by greybeard33

Too cold-hearted - no feelings from me

I guess I'd be worried that our LAG CO won't get it in with his non-nut hands if we lead. Although I would certainly think SB is going to lead here with nut flush, so probably a moot point.

LAG CO hands that he will fold when we lead will be a lot of better two pair hands that we want to fold.. so that is the point of leading.

Small Blind won't have a better A2 too often when he checks river so we should get at least half and possibly 3/4 if we get past CO.

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07-23-2016 , 12:54 PM

#23

Hero Value

BBV Series Inaugural Champ

Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 9,258

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hurp Durpington

I'm still never considering folding here given the action, his smallish sizing, and the sb caller.
Call.
And yes then lead almost any 3,6,7 or 8 river (except maybe like the 3 of c).

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07-23-2016 , 02:21 PM

#24

greybeard33

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 523

Quote:

Originally Posted by deadpeddler

I just don't think our hi is ever good here once the straightening club hits (against villains as described). So since getting 1/4 more likely than 3/4 i want to let the LAG do his thing and at least get 1/4 of his chips too. But tough to argue against your logic and a multi-bracelet winner...

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08-01-2016 , 01:57 PM

#25

spimp13

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 5,953

Quote:

Originally Posted by deadpeddler

Thanks for running the #s. I didn't really look at it that closely on my post...was more curious on the situation but of course stack size would make a difference on top of our read...oops on spimps part.

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