First time poster.

I am newer to O-8, and I'm trying to study LO8 (it's the only Omaha live game near where I live).

In order to learn the game, I've been trying to only play starting hands recommended for beginners by Buzz (A2 hands, A3 hands w/ suited ace, and paired Aces hands with at least a suited ace) and Hutchinson-rated hands. I know some people disagree with point count systems, but it felt like a relatively easier way to make quick decisions at a live table and not get too far out of line while I learn.

In my studies, I decided to list out the top 15% hands rated by Pro Poker Tools that did not fit into either of the above mentioned ranges. I thought it might be a beneficial exercise as I look to slowly expand my starting hand ranges. Let's call them "non-Buzz, non-Hutchinson hands" for the sake of my question.

When I compiled that list, several of the hands were AA** hands. As an example, AAT7r is one of those hands. It ranks well on PPT listing of Omaha hands, but it does not fit into either of the above mentioned categories. I ran a couple of simulations with it:

- one against a top 20% hand, two 25% hands, and two random hands
- one against a top 20% hand and two top 25% hands

The first simulation gave it only 12.20% equity, even giving the two random hands greater equity (~14%).
The second simulation was closer in equity to the other three hands....it was given 24.21% equity.

The AAT7r hand definitely lacks certain desired characteristics such as low hand strength and suitedness. In a low limit live game like I play, my first simulation seemed like a reasonable scenario that I might come across if I chose to play that hand. As I seek to broaden my starting hand ranges, does the poor equity of the six-handed simulation give anyone pause for playing it (e.g. - limping in late position). Does anyone with a lot of LO8 experience have thoughts on how they learned to expand their ranges as they gained experience, or thoughts on playing AA** hands as I mentioned here? Thanks.

The only way to learn is to play hands. You will make mistakes playing those hands. That is part of learning. Accept it, do it, learn it, live it, love it.

It's interesting, as your data effectively showed, if you are going to play a non-premium AA hand, it's either play it for a raise, or fold. You need to drive out random blind hands.

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This. So you see your hand does better with less people in the pot.


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Yeah in my local live low limit O8 game (4-8 is all we get until the fall/winter which is when we start to see 10/20 and 20/40) dry aces are pretty awful since the game is full of calling stations. 4-5 to see the flop is pretty standard and unless you're raising in EP you can't do much to change that since you don't see a lot of preflop raises at a lot of these tables. It's mostly an older crowd happy to play bingo.

A Suited ace with two wheel cards is probably your most common good equity hand to play multiway with a table of fish. I also find a/2 and a/3 with two face cards to play pretty well as well. If you're playing against an older crowd, you can often get away with semi bluffs with position by raising with weak flushes to get 10, J and Q high flushes to fold.

Overal though a lower limit O8 game is hard to crack because of the rake sizes. Hopefully your game is at least 8-16 or higher. I can't play the 4-8 game locally, it's incredibly boring. You could raise AA23ds and still get called by 5/7/9/J on the BB. Makes for uninteresting bingo.

Welcome to the forum.

Interesting approach. But the thing is, you don't want to get wedded to a particular range of hands. That is, as soon as possible you want to get to playing your particular opponents. That is, you play a particular hand one way against Opponent A, but play the same hand differently against Opponent B. Alas, it's impossible for me to tell you exactly how to do that... but that's the essence of "playing poker."

There's not much pure bluffing at a full table in limit-Omaha-8, at least at the lower stakes, but there's a lot of what, for lack of a better term, I'll call semi-bluffing. And you want to get, as quickly as possible, to where you "feel" when that approach will work and when it won't. It's a matter of judging your particular opponents... and ideally you do that very quickly so that they don't realize what you're doing.,

AAT7rainbow is one of those hands that plays better against fewer opponents. That should be obvious from the following two simulations:

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
AsAhTd7c	14.98%	50,115	98,848	10,653	18,802	9,619
20%	25.04%	60,492	85,215	11,604	155,798	28,187
*	15.05%	47,143	95,695	11,844	29,925	11,484
*	15.00%	46,510	95,717	12,012	29,598	11,541
*	14.97%	46,670	95,400	11,831	29,570	11,384
*	14.96%	46,598	95,309	11,711	29,675	11,456

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
AsAhTd7c	56.46%	234,045	384,732	21,763	60,223	21,627
20%	43.54%	157,386	193,505	21,763	221,039	21,627

So if you can get heads-up, then fine, do that. But if you're at a table where your opponents won't fold to your raise, then don't raise. Instead, wait to see the flop before deciding how to proceed. At least that's the general idea.

I'll take your word for it. I think your simulation shows about the same thing as mine... the hand plays better against fewer opponents... so if you can get there by raising, then do that.

(But if you can't get there, then don't).

Yes. (I agree).

I usually would want to see the flop if holding AAT7r. But I'd play the hand differently against different opponents. How "depends."

In my humble opinion, it's a matter of playing your particular opponents.

Just my style of play. (Works for me).

Buzz

Ya, who would want to play in a game like that?

Adding to the accurate analysis described by Buzz, the problem with AAT7r is it's so unpolarized.
OK, so your AAT7 has 56.5% against top 20%. But how do you realize your equity? How to do get your half when the flop is 678, or A45, or even 228 you're in trouble. If you're in a spot where you can jam half your stack in pre-flop, it's probably OK. If you can isolate AND have position, it's OK.
But otherwise you're just going to be in for a world of pain.
I would suggest calling to hit a set if you have the odds, or just folding.

Given OP said this is LO8, he really should reload if raising pre puts half of his chips in.

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doh - I hate fixed limit.
But what I said still applies just even more because you can't even protect your hand and you're left with even more bluff catching spots trying to realize your equity with one pair.

Right, except at low stakes O8, it's next to impossible to isolate in position as limpers in front of you are nearly always calling one more small bet. :-/
Higher stakes? It's somewhat more achievable.

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Are you playing PL or limit?
In my experience, post flop playability matters far more than pre flop equity.

Which hand do you think will turn more profit? AA7T or A4KJ

Some of the same questions I've had recently, good insight.

Good question. I think I'd rather try to see a cheap flop with A4KJ than try to play AA7T for a raise. The former is just better disguised on QTx or 23x flops, while the latter is going to get you a fold when you bink an ace on the flop and the board is otherwise dry.

This. If you can limp for one bet preflop from late position, fine. But if you're in early position or someone raises pre, just muck this hand.

I'm assuming, by the way, a loose low-limit game in which 6 or more players see the flop. How do you win with AA7T in a game like that? You flop a set and hope that either the board pairs or no one makes a straight or flush, in which case you're chopping with the low. Or the board brings exactly KQJ, which is unlikely. Or you make a straight around the 7 and T, which is unlikely and will either mean you're chopping with the low or that a bigger straight is possible. Or the board pairs and your Aces up wins the high or maybe even scoops.

A lot of the equity in this hand isn't realized until the river; but you can't always make it that far. That's what people mean when they refer to preflop equity vs. postflop playability.

Let's say the board on the turn is 35Q9. Someone bets, someone calls, maybe someone else raises. I'm not sure you would even get to the turn here, but if you did, I doubt you're calling even one bet on this turn with bare aces, much less cold-calling a raise.

Now the river pairs the board with a black 3. So the flush draws missed, the low draws missed, the wheel draws missed, the high straight draws missed, and anyone with top two pair on the flop or turn just got counterfeited. As long as no one has a boat or trip 3's, aces up is the best hand. But two things have to happen for your aces to win in this spot: (1) you have to get to the river (I don't with that runout), and (2) you have to be savvy enough to call when the A246 decides to bluff, or when the AQxx or KKxx decides to make a thin value bet on the end.

OP, if you want to broaden the range of starting hands you play, I recommend you read Jeff Hwang, Pot Limit Omaha, pages 185-197 (which is in the lengthy section on limit O8). He discusses starting hands in 7 groups, which I have found to be more helpful (and less mechanical) than Hutchison's point count system:
1. A2 Hands
2. A3 Hands
3. A-4-5-X with a suited Ace
4. AA Hands
5. High-Only Hands
6. 2-3 Hands
7. Other Marginal Hands

You can find a PDF of this book online.