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Omaha/8 Discussions of Omaha High-Low Split (Eight or Better) Poker.

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Old 05-10-2017, 02:25 AM   #26
the_spike
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

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Originally Posted by NickMPK View Post
I can't find a case where A288 is clearly the better hand.
It's better in terms of playability! Yes, in Holdem Q2o is better than JTs by 51% to 49% if you run them hot/cold. You honestly think Q2o is a "better" hand than JTs??


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Originally Posted by NickMPK View Post
Hand Equity Scoops Wins Hi Ties Hi Wins Lo Ties Lo
a2 27.54% 67,894 110,242 18,398 102,970 115,742
10% 26.89% 83,890 145,325 19,992 42,010 101,050
30% 23.36% 75,917 148,217 16,400 33,603 44,288
100% 22.21% 80,176 165,380 8,738 14,174 9,089

Note the random A2 is much better than A288, but somewhat worse than A299.
What is this nonsense? Plug it in right. Pit A288 against A2xx and you get 51% for A288. So it's better hot/cold but again that's not really the point. The point is the playability and how you win money with it. Clearly A288 is a monster when you flop a set of 8s usually, because you're already a third to a low, or halfway to a nut low draw.
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Old 05-10-2017, 05:47 AM   #27
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

I used the odds oracle hand ranking, not the random range calculations showing up in the the thread

Also a288 does not have superior playability to a299, while I could expound on this point in more detail I should note that
if anything a299 should because of the higher probability of making nut lo with 2 more 8 outs
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Old 05-10-2017, 12:16 PM   #28
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

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Originally Posted by the_spike View Post
It's better in terms of playability! Yes, in Holdem Q2o is better than JTs by 51% to 49% if you run them hot/cold. You honestly think Q2o is a "better" hand than JTs??




What is this nonsense? Plug it in right. Pit A288 against A2xx and you get 51% for A288. So it's better hot/cold but again that's not really the point. The point is the playability and how you win money with it. Clearly A288 is a monster when you flop a set of 8s usually, because you're already a third to a low, or halfway to a nut low draw.
Running two hands against each other hot and cold is a pretty terrible way to determine which hand is better in O8. But since you insist:

Hand Equity Scoops Wins Hi Ties Hi Wins Lo Ties Lo
A299 66.50% 235,774 433,569 33,817 0 216,410
A288 33.50% 60,099 132,614 33,817 85,998 216,410

Hands with pairs tend to run better head-up hot and cold than hands without pairs, the higher the pair, the better. That's why A288 is a slight favorite over A2xx (and an enormous underdog to A299).

But again, that's a silly way to look at equities. The much better way, which I was doing in my last post, is to run both hands against the sort of hand ranges they will likely be up against.

But any way you do it, A299 is better than A288.
Even, why you flop a set, A299 is much better than A288!

board: 9
Hand Equity Scoops Wins Hi Ties Hi Wins Lo Ties Lo
A299 58.53% 273,082 365,076 1,778 58,919 72,723
10% 14.89% 43,589 65,631 5,398 40,517 67,149
30% 13.64% 45,267 74,894 5,852 32,933 28,358
100% 12.94% 49,205 85,756 4,639 17,142 6,695

board: 8
Hand Equity Scoops Wins Hi Ties Hi Wins Lo Ties Lo
A288 55.31% 186,488 360,671 1,762 112,743 143,571
10% 17.78% 28,891 64,573 5,116 63,267 129,566
30% 14.61% 29,145 75,453 5,847 50,815 54,253
100% 12.30% 29,668 90,788 4,652 22,859 11,535


It is also ranked much better in all situations:

Rankings for A299
Ranking Description Average Best Worst
10H 10-handed iterative (default) 10.75 5.0 19.0
3H 3-handed iterative 13.25 6.0 24.0
6H 6-handed iterative 11.13 5.0 20.0
VR vs. random hand 15.13 6.0 26.0

Rankings for A288
Ranking Description Average Best Worst
10H 10-handed iterative (default) 16.5 7.0 30.0
3H 3-handed iterative 16.75 7.0 29.0
6H 6-handed iterative 16.38 7.0 28.0
VR vs. random hand 16.5 6.0 28.0

FWIW, A2xx ranks better than both on average:

Rankings for A2
Ranking Description Average Best Worst
10H 10-handed iterative (default) 8.19 1.0 92.0
3H 3-handed iterative 11.82 1.0 98.0
6H 6-handed iterative 8.98 1.0 95.0
VR vs. random hand 14.99 1.0 99.0


So I'm still trying to think of a situation in which A288 is better, or even "more playable". The only spot I can think of is that A288 has emergency low value in a short-handed pot against tight ranges when everyone's low get counterfeit. But in the more typical situation when 28 is not likely to win the low, A299 is even a much better low hand because it doesn't block its own low outs.
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Old 05-10-2017, 12:31 PM   #29
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

As one final test of my last statement, here are both hands when they flop a nut low draw without much else going for them:

board: 46Q
Hand Equity Scoops Wins Hi Ties Hi Wins Lo Ties Lo
A299 30.42% 52,977 87,783 1,492 148,014 194,186
10% 26.82% 57,411 152,775 10,150 38,394 165,241
30% 22.97% 52,017 170,127 11,280 26,736 63,449
100% 19.79% 44,265 173,881 8,199 12,771 11,699

board: 46Q
Hand Equity Scoops Wins Hi Ties Hi Wins Lo Ties Lo
A288 27.26% 43,392 82,852 1,487 138,391 177,448
10% 27.59% 69,692 157,411 10,313 37,269 151,078
30% 24.14% 66,296 172,050 11,007 26,263 59,882
100% 21.01% 62,497 172,476 7,850 10,604 10,901

Again, A299 is more than 10% equity improvement on A288. Perhaps surprisingly, the majority of this improvement comes on the low side, because A299 has two additional nut low outs.
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Old 05-10-2017, 05:21 PM   #30
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

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Originally Posted by the_spike View Post
Nonsense. Not only is A288 a pretty good hand, it's also a better hand than A299. A288 is also a better hand than A266.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NickMPK View Post
Hands with pairs tend to run better head-up hot and cold than hands without pairs, the higher the pair, the better. That's why A288 is a slight favorite over A2xx (and an enormous underdog to A299).

So I'm still trying to think of a situation in which A288 is better, or even "more playable". The only spot I can think of is that A288 has emergency low value in a short-handed pot against tight ranges when everyone's low get counterfeit. But in the more typical situation when 28 is not likely to win the low, A299 is even a much better low hand because it doesn't block its own low outs.
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Originally Posted by monikrazy View Post
Also a288 does not have superior playability to a299, while I could expound on this point in more detail I should note that
if anything a299 should because of the higher probability of making nut lo with 2 more 8 outs
It's all opponent specific tbh, and locking yourself into mainly one or the other is only limiting yourself. Against your average ace-wheel regs, a299 has a slight advantage. Against an opponent who shades more towards the hi side, such as some hu regs who include a lot of PLO hands - then it's a288 with the slight advantage.

I'll take a random broadway card instead of those pairs any day though.
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Old 05-10-2017, 08:35 PM   #31
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

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Originally Posted by lotuspod2 View Post
It's all opponent specific tbh, and locking yourself into mainly one or the other is only limiting yourself. Against your average ace-wheel regs, a299 has a slight advantage. Against an opponent who shades more towards the hi side, such as some hu regs who include a lot of PLO hands - then it's a288 with the slight advantage.

I'll take a random broadway card instead of those pairs any day though.
What do you mean by "hu regs"? OP is a live mixed game player.

But it's definitely true that neither 99 nor 88 are -good- LO8 hands. My original point was just that high pairs do add value and playability to some high hands. On the other hand, 88 is possibly the worst two card combination in the game.
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Old 05-10-2017, 08:45 PM   #32
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

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What do you mean by "hu regs"? OP is a live mixed game player.
I'd guess his game gets its fair share of PLO players too then, lots of people play hi hands in LO8.
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Old 05-10-2017, 09:49 PM   #33
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

Pretty sure 29 is the worst two card combination.
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Old 05-15-2017, 01:23 PM   #34
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Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

Regarding the discussion of pocket pairs in LO8, I would suggest that KK, QQ, and JJ can be welcome along with A2 and A3 for a good hi/lo combo hand. This hidden strength comes from the subset of K high to J high full boards that do not allow for straights or flushes, basically blank. So you are not just drawing for a FH, you are also drawing for a turn blank and able to charge double for turn bets.


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Last edited by robert_utk; 05-15-2017 at 01:36 PM.
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Old 05-15-2017, 01:25 PM   #35
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

But all boards where TT and 99 are top set contain a low possible split, so those are worth less, and 88 through 22 would be better off as 87 and 23, since nut low wrap draw or nut now and straight draw is more common than nut low and FH draw.


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Old 05-15-2017, 01:31 PM   #36
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

As for the rake, I always look for tables or stakes where you can giig with a agro fishes and reasonably expect to exceed the rake cap, so its a big win with about half the rake of doing two separate hands at full rake each. Fixed limit is more about isolating weak players with repeated aggression, right? Ram a jam and run them over is the only route out of the low stakes. This is my opinion.


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Old 05-16-2017, 06:22 AM   #37
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

Hey OP,

I was an exclusive LHE player for years, and only started learning O and E about 6 months before Black Friday. Since BF I've played mostly live mixed games, so I feel like I may be able to help you out here a bit. I've said for a long time that I believe the transition from LHE to O8 is one of the hardest transitions to make in poker. Split pot games in general require a whole different way of evaluating situations, and a lot of things that are good habits in LHE turn into disastrous plays in O8.

The first example that I will always point to is flopping two pair. In LHE this is a nut flop, one that you almost always feel comfortable jamming, and you will usually feel you have the best hand. In LO8, flopping two pair can mean anything from JAMJAMJAM to immediately fold for one bet on the flop, with lots of space in between depending on the situation.

The most important thing when learning to play split pot in general is just to never forget that your main objective should always be scooping. There's a bit of a mental tendency among poker players that begin playing O8 that says something along the lines of "I want to play hands that go both high and low" because early on, you immediately learn that hands like A23K are strong. This leads to people looking at hands like QJ32 and evaluating them as playable in many situations where they are not actually playable. It's not that you want to play hands that can go both high and low. You want to play hands that scoop. High-only hands can hold tremendous value, as can "low-only" hands.

Can't write any more at this time, will bookmark the thread for another time.
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Old 05-18-2017, 04:30 PM   #38
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

Quote:
Originally Posted by the_spike View Post

Examples

99 on a:
479JQ board (5th nuts)
39QQA board (5th nuts)
439TJ board (5th nuts)
269KQ board (4th nuts)

88 on a:
23558 board (2nd nuts, chop)
A378K board (2nd nuts, chop)
2278Q board (3rd nuts, chop)
468TK board (4th nuts, chop)
Half of these xth nuts determinations are simply wrong.

99 on a 39QQA board is the 6th nuts. It loses to:
1. QQ
2. AA
3. QA
4. Q9
5. Q3

99 on a 439TJ board is the 6th nuts. It loses to:
1. KQ
2. Q8
3. 87
4. JJ
5. TT

88 on an A378K board is the 3rd nuts. It loses to:
1. AA
2. KK

88 on a 468TK board is the 5th nuts. It loses to:
1. 97
2. 75
3. KK
4. TT
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Old 05-19-2017, 09:21 PM   #39
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

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Originally Posted by robert_utk View Post
Regarding the discussion of pocket pairs in LO8, I would suggest that KK, QQ, and JJ can be welcome along with A2 and A3 for a good hi/lo combo hand. This hidden strength comes from the subset of K high to J high full boards that do not allow for straights or flushes, basically blank. So you are not just drawing for a FH, you are also drawing for a turn blank and able to charge double for turn bets.


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There is no J high board that does not allow for a straight. The nuts are never less than a set of queens.
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Old 05-19-2017, 09:26 PM   #40
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

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There is no J high board that does not allow for a straight. The nuts are never less than a set of queens.


Ahhh you are correct. I am rusty obv. I must be remembering holding the set of jacks on the turn. Thanks for the correction.


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