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Old 05-10-2017, 02:25 AM   #26
the_spike
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

Quote:
Originally Posted by NickMPK View Post
I can't find a case where A288 is clearly the better hand.
It's better in terms of playability! Yes, in Holdem Q2o is better than JTs by 51% to 49% if you run them hot/cold. You honestly think Q2o is a "better" hand than JTs??


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Originally Posted by NickMPK View Post
Hand Equity Scoops Wins Hi Ties Hi Wins Lo Ties Lo
a2 27.54% 67,894 110,242 18,398 102,970 115,742
10% 26.89% 83,890 145,325 19,992 42,010 101,050
30% 23.36% 75,917 148,217 16,400 33,603 44,288
100% 22.21% 80,176 165,380 8,738 14,174 9,089

Note the random A2 is much better than A288, but somewhat worse than A299.
What is this nonsense? Plug it in right. Pit A288 against A2xx and you get 51% for A288. So it's better hot/cold but again that's not really the point. The point is the playability and how you win money with it. Clearly A288 is a monster when you flop a set of 8s usually, because you're already a third to a low, or halfway to a nut low draw.
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Old 05-10-2017, 05:47 AM   #27
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

I used the odds oracle hand ranking, not the random range calculations showing up in the the thread

Also a288 does not have superior playability to a299, while I could expound on this point in more detail I should note that
if anything a299 should because of the higher probability of making nut lo with 2 more 8 outs
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Old 05-10-2017, 12:16 PM   #28
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

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Originally Posted by the_spike View Post
It's better in terms of playability! Yes, in Holdem Q2o is better than JTs by 51% to 49% if you run them hot/cold. You honestly think Q2o is a "better" hand than JTs??




What is this nonsense? Plug it in right. Pit A288 against A2xx and you get 51% for A288. So it's better hot/cold but again that's not really the point. The point is the playability and how you win money with it. Clearly A288 is a monster when you flop a set of 8s usually, because you're already a third to a low, or halfway to a nut low draw.
Running two hands against each other hot and cold is a pretty terrible way to determine which hand is better in O8. But since you insist:

Hand Equity Scoops Wins Hi Ties Hi Wins Lo Ties Lo
A299 66.50% 235,774 433,569 33,817 0 216,410
A288 33.50% 60,099 132,614 33,817 85,998 216,410

Hands with pairs tend to run better head-up hot and cold than hands without pairs, the higher the pair, the better. That's why A288 is a slight favorite over A2xx (and an enormous underdog to A299).

But again, that's a silly way to look at equities. The much better way, which I was doing in my last post, is to run both hands against the sort of hand ranges they will likely be up against.

But any way you do it, A299 is better than A288.
Even, why you flop a set, A299 is much better than A288!

board: 9
Hand Equity Scoops Wins Hi Ties Hi Wins Lo Ties Lo
A299 58.53% 273,082 365,076 1,778 58,919 72,723
10% 14.89% 43,589 65,631 5,398 40,517 67,149
30% 13.64% 45,267 74,894 5,852 32,933 28,358
100% 12.94% 49,205 85,756 4,639 17,142 6,695

board: 8
Hand Equity Scoops Wins Hi Ties Hi Wins Lo Ties Lo
A288 55.31% 186,488 360,671 1,762 112,743 143,571
10% 17.78% 28,891 64,573 5,116 63,267 129,566
30% 14.61% 29,145 75,453 5,847 50,815 54,253
100% 12.30% 29,668 90,788 4,652 22,859 11,535


It is also ranked much better in all situations:

Rankings for A299
Ranking Description Average Best Worst
10H 10-handed iterative (default) 10.75 5.0 19.0
3H 3-handed iterative 13.25 6.0 24.0
6H 6-handed iterative 11.13 5.0 20.0
VR vs. random hand 15.13 6.0 26.0

Rankings for A288
Ranking Description Average Best Worst
10H 10-handed iterative (default) 16.5 7.0 30.0
3H 3-handed iterative 16.75 7.0 29.0
6H 6-handed iterative 16.38 7.0 28.0
VR vs. random hand 16.5 6.0 28.0

FWIW, A2xx ranks better than both on average:

Rankings for A2
Ranking Description Average Best Worst
10H 10-handed iterative (default) 8.19 1.0 92.0
3H 3-handed iterative 11.82 1.0 98.0
6H 6-handed iterative 8.98 1.0 95.0
VR vs. random hand 14.99 1.0 99.0


So I'm still trying to think of a situation in which A288 is better, or even "more playable". The only spot I can think of is that A288 has emergency low value in a short-handed pot against tight ranges when everyone's low get counterfeit. But in the more typical situation when 28 is not likely to win the low, A299 is even a much better low hand because it doesn't block its own low outs.
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Old 05-10-2017, 12:31 PM   #29
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

As one final test of my last statement, here are both hands when they flop a nut low draw without much else going for them:

board: 46Q
Hand Equity Scoops Wins Hi Ties Hi Wins Lo Ties Lo
A299 30.42% 52,977 87,783 1,492 148,014 194,186
10% 26.82% 57,411 152,775 10,150 38,394 165,241
30% 22.97% 52,017 170,127 11,280 26,736 63,449
100% 19.79% 44,265 173,881 8,199 12,771 11,699

board: 46Q
Hand Equity Scoops Wins Hi Ties Hi Wins Lo Ties Lo
A288 27.26% 43,392 82,852 1,487 138,391 177,448
10% 27.59% 69,692 157,411 10,313 37,269 151,078
30% 24.14% 66,296 172,050 11,007 26,263 59,882
100% 21.01% 62,497 172,476 7,850 10,604 10,901

Again, A299 is more than 10% equity improvement on A288. Perhaps surprisingly, the majority of this improvement comes on the low side, because A299 has two additional nut low outs.
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Old 05-10-2017, 05:21 PM   #30
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

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Originally Posted by the_spike View Post
Nonsense. Not only is A288 a pretty good hand, it's also a better hand than A299. A288 is also a better hand than A266.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NickMPK View Post
Hands with pairs tend to run better head-up hot and cold than hands without pairs, the higher the pair, the better. That's why A288 is a slight favorite over A2xx (and an enormous underdog to A299).

So I'm still trying to think of a situation in which A288 is better, or even "more playable". The only spot I can think of is that A288 has emergency low value in a short-handed pot against tight ranges when everyone's low get counterfeit. But in the more typical situation when 28 is not likely to win the low, A299 is even a much better low hand because it doesn't block its own low outs.
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Originally Posted by monikrazy View Post
Also a288 does not have superior playability to a299, while I could expound on this point in more detail I should note that
if anything a299 should because of the higher probability of making nut lo with 2 more 8 outs
It's all opponent specific tbh, and locking yourself into mainly one or the other is only limiting yourself. Against your average ace-wheel regs, a299 has a slight advantage. Against an opponent who shades more towards the hi side, such as some hu regs who include a lot of PLO hands - then it's a288 with the slight advantage.

I'll take a random broadway card instead of those pairs any day though.
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Old 05-10-2017, 08:35 PM   #31
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

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It's all opponent specific tbh, and locking yourself into mainly one or the other is only limiting yourself. Against your average ace-wheel regs, a299 has a slight advantage. Against an opponent who shades more towards the hi side, such as some hu regs who include a lot of PLO hands - then it's a288 with the slight advantage.

I'll take a random broadway card instead of those pairs any day though.
What do you mean by "hu regs"? OP is a live mixed game player.

But it's definitely true that neither 99 nor 88 are -good- LO8 hands. My original point was just that high pairs do add value and playability to some high hands. On the other hand, 88 is possibly the worst two card combination in the game.
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Old 05-10-2017, 08:45 PM   #32
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

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What do you mean by "hu regs"? OP is a live mixed game player.
I'd guess his game gets its fair share of PLO players too then, lots of people play hi hands in LO8.
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Old 05-10-2017, 09:49 PM   #33
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

Pretty sure 29 is the worst two card combination.
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Old 05-15-2017, 01:23 PM   #34
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Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

Regarding the discussion of pocket pairs in LO8, I would suggest that KK, QQ, and JJ can be welcome along with A2 and A3 for a good hi/lo combo hand. This hidden strength comes from the subset of K high to J high full boards that do not allow for straights or flushes, basically blank. So you are not just drawing for a FH, you are also drawing for a turn blank and able to charge double for turn bets.


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Last edited by robert_utk; 05-15-2017 at 01:36 PM.
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Old 05-15-2017, 01:25 PM   #35
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

But all boards where TT and 99 are top set contain a low possible split, so those are worth less, and 88 through 22 would be better off as 87 and 23, since nut low wrap draw or nut now and straight draw is more common than nut low and FH draw.


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Old 05-15-2017, 01:31 PM   #36
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

As for the rake, I always look for tables or stakes where you can giig with a agro fishes and reasonably expect to exceed the rake cap, so its a big win with about half the rake of doing two separate hands at full rake each. Fixed limit is more about isolating weak players with repeated aggression, right? Ram a jam and run them over is the only route out of the low stakes. This is my opinion.


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Old 05-16-2017, 06:22 AM   #37
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

Hey OP,

I was an exclusive LHE player for years, and only started learning O and E about 6 months before Black Friday. Since BF I've played mostly live mixed games, so I feel like I may be able to help you out here a bit. I've said for a long time that I believe the transition from LHE to O8 is one of the hardest transitions to make in poker. Split pot games in general require a whole different way of evaluating situations, and a lot of things that are good habits in LHE turn into disastrous plays in O8.

The first example that I will always point to is flopping two pair. In LHE this is a nut flop, one that you almost always feel comfortable jamming, and you will usually feel you have the best hand. In LO8, flopping two pair can mean anything from JAMJAMJAM to immediately fold for one bet on the flop, with lots of space in between depending on the situation.

The most important thing when learning to play split pot in general is just to never forget that your main objective should always be scooping. There's a bit of a mental tendency among poker players that begin playing O8 that says something along the lines of "I want to play hands that go both high and low" because early on, you immediately learn that hands like A23K are strong. This leads to people looking at hands like QJ32 and evaluating them as playable in many situations where they are not actually playable. It's not that you want to play hands that can go both high and low. You want to play hands that scoop. High-only hands can hold tremendous value, as can "low-only" hands.

Can't write any more at this time, will bookmark the thread for another time.
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Old 05-18-2017, 04:30 PM   #38
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

Quote:
Originally Posted by the_spike View Post

Examples

99 on a:
479JQ board (5th nuts)
39QQA board (5th nuts)
439TJ board (5th nuts)
269KQ board (4th nuts)

88 on a:
23558 board (2nd nuts, chop)
A378K board (2nd nuts, chop)
2278Q board (3rd nuts, chop)
468TK board (4th nuts, chop)
Half of these xth nuts determinations are simply wrong.

99 on a 39QQA board is the 6th nuts. It loses to:
1. QQ
2. AA
3. QA
4. Q9
5. Q3

99 on a 439TJ board is the 6th nuts. It loses to:
1. KQ
2. Q8
3. 87
4. JJ
5. TT

88 on an A378K board is the 3rd nuts. It loses to:
1. AA
2. KK

88 on a 468TK board is the 5th nuts. It loses to:
1. 97
2. 75
3. KK
4. TT
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Old 05-19-2017, 09:21 PM   #39
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

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Originally Posted by robert_utk View Post
Regarding the discussion of pocket pairs in LO8, I would suggest that KK, QQ, and JJ can be welcome along with A2 and A3 for a good hi/lo combo hand. This hidden strength comes from the subset of K high to J high full boards that do not allow for straights or flushes, basically blank. So you are not just drawing for a FH, you are also drawing for a turn blank and able to charge double for turn bets.


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There is no J high board that does not allow for a straight. The nuts are never less than a set of queens.
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Old 05-19-2017, 09:26 PM   #40
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

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There is no J high board that does not allow for a straight. The nuts are never less than a set of queens.


Ahhh you are correct. I am rusty obv. I must be remembering holding the set of jacks on the turn. Thanks for the correction.


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Old 05-31-2017, 01:26 PM   #41
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

OK. Can I get some general advice on blind defense ranges in 6-handed FLO8? I have been calling too wide, because most hands are not too far behind. But being out of position means I have to connect or bluff to reclaim the EV, at least I think this is a hole in my game.


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Old 06-01-2017, 02:36 PM   #42
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

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OK. Can I get some general advice on blind defense ranges in 6-handed FLO8? I have been calling too wide, because most hands are not too far behind. But being out of position means I have to connect or bluff to reclaim the EV, at least I think this is a hole in my game.


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Heads up vs late position raises you should feel comfortable defending a very wide range. Any two wheel cards, any kind of 3 connected high hand, any kind of reasonable Axxx hand. Playing out of position can be uncomfortable, so you should look to keep pots smaller. For example, if you defend something like JT43, you should probably just check/call on a T42 flop.

I actually follow a very strict rule of not taking the betting lead preflop heads up out of position, as you are rarely pushing a large edge preflop with your extra bet, and you mostly just make it easier for your opponent to play postflop. The only way I would veer from this strategy is if my opponent habitually checked back flops.

Multiway things get a bit more complicated. Hands with lots of middle cards, even when they are connected become very dicey. A hand like 6789 is actually quite strong to defend heads up, but in 3-4 way pots you will have an extremely difficult time scooping at a showdown.

The most important thing to know about LO8 is that preflop is one of the least important streets. All sorts of preflop stats can be winning strategies, the money is mostly won and lost postflop.
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Old 06-01-2017, 03:18 PM   #43
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

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Heads up vs late position raises you should feel comfortable defending a very wide range. Any two wheel cards, any kind of 3 connected high hand, any kind of reasonable Axxx hand. Playing out of position can be uncomfortable, so you should look to keep pots smaller. For example, if you defend something like JT43, you should probably just check/call on a T42 flop.



I actually follow a very strict rule of not taking the betting lead preflop heads up out of position, as you are rarely pushing a large edge preflop with your extra bet, and you mostly just make it easier for your opponent to play postflop. The only way I would veer from this strategy is if my opponent habitually checked back flops.



Multiway things get a bit more complicated. Hands with lots of middle cards, even when they are connected become very dicey. A hand like 6789 is actually quite strong to defend heads up, but in 3-4 way pots you will have an extremely difficult time scooping at a showdown.



The most important thing to know about LO8 is that preflop is one of the least important streets. All sorts of preflop stats can be winning strategies, the money is mostly won and lost postflop.


I think my natural limit poker sense is working OK in heads up defense. I have been calling the one extra bet too often from the big blind in multiway pots with the worst hand. The players are few and range from Agro donk to tight reg. Given that it is usually 4 to 6 players seated at the table, how tight a defense range would break even? My strat is basically go for a scoop and back into nut low, or flop perfect and jam out the high hands for no showdown or quarter a naked low with no high hand.

So, I don't want to fold my blind negatively and slowly get blinded off, nor do I want to flat too often from the big blind when there is little chance of scooping. 3betting oop would not get anyone to fold, or even slow down, as you say raising pre does not accomplish much in this game.

My plan for now is to need Ax with x=wheel card, at minimum, to flat single raise from the BB, and any two wheel cards to complete the small blind. As for three connected high cards, I know they are prob +EV but I am leery. I would need a high wrap or the top two to continue, do you think?

Thanks for your advice so far.


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Old 06-02-2017, 11:13 AM   #44
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

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OK. Can I get some general advice on blind defense ranges in 6-handed FLO8? I have been calling too wide, because most hands are not too far behind. But being out of position means I have to connect or bluff to reclaim the EV, at least I think this is a hole in my game.


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Defending too widely from the BB is rarely the leak many people think it is. A good result from the Bb does not necessarily mean scooping the pot. You profit if you just get your blind back.
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Old 06-02-2017, 04:02 PM   #45
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

4-6 handed I have tightened up my defend range and seems to be working well. The problem is the rake is so bad that it makes marginal +EV into -EV. So in addition to bad fishes, I need extra edge and rakeback is essential, obviously.


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Old 06-03-2017, 03:49 PM   #46
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

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Originally Posted by NickMPK View Post
Heads-up v. Random Hand:

Hand Equity Scoops Wins Hi Ties Hi Wins Lo Ties Lo
a288 55.66% 246,277 304,807 2,829 214,757 14,624
100% 44.34% 179,806 292,364 2,829 77,596 14,624

Hand Equity Scoops Wins Hi Ties Hi Wins Lo Ties Lo
a299 56.06% 243,098 317,465 3,006 185,484 15,216
100% 43.94% 170,909 279,529 3,006 104,970 15,216


Heads-up v. Premium Hand:

Hand Equity Scoops Wins Hi Ties Hi Wins Lo Ties Lo
a288 47.12% 178,366 262,493 10,311 130,094 83,158
10% 52.88% 219,022 327,196 10,311 84,495 83,158

Hand Equity Scoops Wins Hi Ties Hi Wins Lo Ties Lo
a299 47.32% 178,504 266,689 10,666 111,754 96,980
10% 52.68% 211,134 322,645 10,666 100,816 96,980


Multiway pot:

Hand Equity Scoops Wins Hi Ties Hi Wins Lo Ties Lo
a288 25.28% 72,888 126,493 5,643 75,284 96,217
10% 28.43% 98,581 152,427 15,008 52,066 89,435
30% 24.24% 85,611 146,779 13,115 42,951 40,788
100% 22.05% 86,636 154,481 6,849 19,151 9,091

Hand Equity Scoops Wins Hi Ties Hi Wins Lo Ties Lo
a299 28.69% 86,957 131,852 5,699 83,879 112,716
10% 28.04% 82,604 151,771 14,809 59,388 104,641
30% 23.31% 68,582 146,063 12,852 48,791 45,756
100% 19.96% 61,182 150,590 7,044 23,744 10,458

So A299 is very slightly better than A288 heads-up, but much better multiway. I can't find a case where A288 is clearly the better hand.



Hand Equity Scoops Wins Hi Ties Hi Wins Lo Ties Lo
a2 27.54% 67,894 110,242 18,398 102,970 115,742
10% 26.89% 83,890 145,325 19,992 42,010 101,050
30% 23.36% 75,917 148,217 16,400 33,603 44,288
100% 22.21% 80,176 165,380 8,738 14,174 9,089

Note the random A2 is much better than A288, but somewhat worse than A299.
I find it ironic you guys are arguing over these two hands that are leaky af in a thread about O8 leaks.
(A2)89 is better than either (A2)99 or (A2)88, which is funny. The order is here, have fun using the search feature http://www.propokertools.com/orderings/o8ordering.txt
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Old 06-05-2017, 11:32 AM   #47
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

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Originally Posted by NLOmahaHL View Post
I find it ironic you guys are arguing over these two hands that are leaky af in a thread about O8 leaks.

(A2)89 is better than either (A2)99 or (A2)88, which is funny. The order is here, have fun using the search feature http://www.propokertools.com/orderings/o8ordering.txt


In FLO8 (A2)88 or (A2)99 would not be a raise for sure. Although idk if I could fold them pre in 6 handed. (A8)28 would be better suited. But the question boils down to actionable information. Are you saying these are too leaky to be +EV in early position? If so I am very interested.

Thanks!


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Old 06-05-2017, 01:44 PM   #48
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

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Originally Posted by robert_utk View Post
In FLO8 (A2)88 or (A2)99 would not be a raise for sure. Although idk if I could fold them pre in 6 handed. (A8)28 would be better suited. But the question boils down to actionable information. Are you saying these are too leaky to be +EV in early position? If so I am very interested.

Thanks!


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Sorry was using a bit too much hyperbole. But, I still don't see much value in these hands as far as scoopimg goes. The A289 has way more scoop potential imo.
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Old 06-05-2017, 01:50 PM   #49
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

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Originally Posted by NLOmahaHL View Post
Sorry was using a bit too much hyperbole. But, I still don't see much value in these hands as far as scoopimg goes. The A289 has way more scoop potential imo.


Ok thanks. I have not been folding these pre. Absolutely would rather have A289 rainbow than (A2)88.

As for my defense ranges short handed, its still murky. 4 handed depends on the stats of the raiser, 3 handed is more loose defense, and heads up is an agro crap shoot. My biggest leak was seeing pure EV from the blinds 5 or 6 handed but forgetting that position still matters, even in FLO8.




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Old 06-05-2017, 02:52 PM   #50
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

You guys are discussing things that do not matter at all. You should certainly not in any world be folding any A2xx UTG 6 handed (Besides A222). A288, A289, A299, it doesn't matter what the suits look like, those are all very playable hands in any LO8 situation.

The most important things to learn in O8 are how to value hands postflop. Sometimes your flopped two pair needs to be raised on the flop, sometimes it needs to be folded immediately for one bet. The main characteristic of poor LO8 players is a failure to get away from flops that fit their hand, but are actually drawing nearly dead multiway.

Worry less about preflop, worry more about the flop.
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