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Old 04-27-2017, 05:59 AM   #1
leavesofliberty
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Question Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

Hello,

I am a live HOE player. By far my weakest game is LO8. I am wondering what the biggest leaks are in LO8. It seems like in my short experience the biggest leak is chasing with an obvious second best low. A lot of chips go in dead. Another is continuing with a set when the flush hits in a multi-way pot. It's about 4-to-1 against hitting on the river. You may be no good when it pairs (unless you quaded and no straight-flush possible), and it's only half the pot, so hold'em players need to adjust and think of it as an 8-to-1. Misjudging the size of the pot (thinking it is bigger than it is), seems quite easy to do for a hold'em player. Also, blind play seems difficult, and there isn't much material on stealing, and re-stealing. I also have little idea what hands to defend with, and how liberally to call from the blinds, or to steal myself. For example, I re-stole OTB with a KK75ds OTB against a cut-off who may steal with >=PP32ss and I have no idea if that's a strong play or not. P is for paint or ace. There seems to be many reasons to play hands like a rando QQds w little or no chance for low to hit the top set, but I am not so sure how good they are, or if this hand is border-line bad or borderline good. It seems like A4XXsa is unplayable until -1, and A3XXsa is unplayable until -4, and it's unclear how XX in this context actually contributes to the holding. HU it pays to have a K, but it's hard to "know" when to raise and limp. So, what does 2p2 think about adjusting from LHE to LO8?
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Old 04-27-2017, 07:11 AM   #2
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

Also, over-valuing the nut-low and putting in bets in a pot that's going to get quartered, which ties-into putting in bets bad with the second nut-low, or second nut-low draw (especially with nothing for high) comes to mind.
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Old 04-27-2017, 08:16 AM   #3
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

Also, the way to categorize, and think about O8 hands is an interesting, though somewhat unrelated question. Currently I think about hands like this:
  1. AW hands (A2,A3,A4)
    1. A2s
    2. A3s
    3. A2ua (unsuited ace)
    4. A4s (suited ace)
  2. AA hands
    1. ds
    2. etc...
  3. KKXX
  4. WWWW
  5. BBBB hands

And subdivide the other two cards into hands such as broadway-broadway, wheel-wheel, middle-middle with some side notes about rare exceptions such as A222r. These categorization are not precisely in terms of strength as there are times that an A4 can do more than an A3 for example, but they seem to be exceptions rather than rules. And obviously positional advantages could make a much larger outline.
  1. XX
    1. XX
      1. WW (wheel-wheel)
      2. WB (wheel-broadway)
      3. BB (broadway-broadway)
      4. WM (wheel-middle)
      5. MM (middle-middle)

And, it makes some sense to categorize flops according to high card, pairness, how many babies there are, and wetness (suited-connectedness). Perhaps starting with the helpful flops for the A2 hands, and downward?

Last edited by leavesofliberty; 04-27-2017 at 08:23 AM.
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Old 05-02-2017, 02:27 PM   #4
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

I picked up Ray Zee's High-Low-Split Poker over the weekend since I'm trying to break into the mix game, since HE usually only runs up to 20/40 here and the mix is 40/80.

But I've mostly just been reading the Stud-8 section so far since that's my weakest game.

In O8:
Personally, I think KK with no supporting cards is a pretty bad hand and my default is to fold it unless in the blinds. That might be wrong / overly tight, but if your only way of winning is by hitting a set, you're generally going to just lose money.

From the big blind I'll generally defend pocket pairs, suited aces or kings, AW, 23, and 3-straights.

This is by no means expert advice, just my opinion from somewhat limited personal experience.
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Old 05-03-2017, 11:05 PM   #5
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

I'm pretty new to O8 but I thought KKxx with no low possibility wasn't a good hand and maybe only playable on the button for an open. I thought for sure WWWW would rank better. I actually just checked in Odds Oracle:

I'm not sure if I filled out the questions correctly but here were the results:





So it looks ike KKxx is in the top 10 % more often. I don't full understand how the percentiles work I thought if it was partially in the top 10% if would always be in the 10-25%.

If I entered in the info incorrectly could someone please PM me, I'm pretty new to odds oracle and games other then nlhe in general.
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Old 05-04-2017, 01:27 AM   #6
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

Seems to me that a pocket pair is generally a detriment to your O8 hand, not an asset. Unless it is AA, and even that combo is generally overrated,
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Old 05-04-2017, 04:43 AM   #7
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

Quote:
Originally Posted by chillrob View Post
Seems to me that a pocket pair is generally a detriment to your O8 hand, not an asset. Unless it is AA, and even that combo is generally overrated,
Also depends on the number of players. A2KK or A3KK is not a bad hand. Especially by using the blockers - although i havent dont the maths.
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Old 05-04-2017, 11:26 AM   #8
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickyt88 View Post
I'm pretty new to O8 but I thought KKxx with no low possibility wasn't a good hand and maybe only playable on the button for an open. I thought for sure WWWW would rank better. I actually just checked in Odds Oracle:

I'm not sure if I filled out the questions correctly but here were the results:



If I entered in the info incorrectly could someone please PM me, I'm pretty new to odds oracle and games other then nlhe in general.
Welcome to the forum. (in honor of Buzz)

YES. wwww is not correct for 4 wheel cards

the correct syntax for 4 wheel cards is $W$W$W$W.
where $W = A,2,3,4,5
$W is a Macro

here is the link to explain the syntax (scroll down to find the list of macros)
http://www.propokertools.com/simulations/generic_syntax

your divisions, 1%-10% and 10%-25% also provide for an overlap, they both count the 10%.

just for your information, the results that i get
percentile $W$W$W$Wkk
in the top 10%46.4%14.56%
in the top 25% not 10%41%26.25%
in the top 40% not 25%6.8%22.2%
in the top 60% not 40%0.75%25.75%
in the bottom 60%5.1%11.22%

the above table is for all combinations of KK. that is there is no restrictions on the 2 accompanying cards.

if you wanted KK where it couldn't make a low, then the 2 accompanying cards could not be low cards of different ranks. i write that as KK!{$L$L}
the ! is not
$L is the macro for low cards
and using {} makes the low cards unpaired.

percentile $W$W$W$Wkk!{$L$L}
in the top 10%46.4%2.69%
in the top 25% not 10%41%18.37%
in the top 40% not 25%6.8%25.94%
in the top 60% not 40%0.75%35.81%
in the bottom 60%5.1%17.18%

Last edited by ngFTW; 05-04-2017 at 11:36 AM.
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Old 05-04-2017, 04:38 PM   #9
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

looking at my post, the bottom entry in the tables should obviously read "in the bottom 40%". (but it was cool i made a table, right)

i also should have included that wwww is any four cards of the same suit. so its equivalent to writing hhhh,ssss,cccc,dddd (where h= any heart,s=any spade,c= any club and d=any diamond)

Last edited by ngFTW; 05-04-2017 at 04:49 PM.
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Old 05-05-2017, 02:29 AM   #10
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

Quote:
Originally Posted by borborygmi View Post
Also depends on the number of players. A2KK or A3KK is not a bad hand. Especially by using the blockers - although i havent dont the maths.
Of course, those are excellent hands...but mostly because they have an A2 or A3 combo. The AK combo is also pretty valuable. KK alone isn't worth a whole lot. If you don't hit a set, it's almost never going to take down anything.
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Old 05-05-2017, 04:43 AM   #11
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ngFTW View Post
Welcome to the forum. (in honor of Buzz)

YES. wwww is not correct for 4 wheel cards

the correct syntax for 4 wheel cards is $W$W$W$W.
where $W = A,2,3,4,5
$W is a Macro

here is the link to explain the syntax (scroll down to find the list of macros)
http://www.propokertools.com/simulations/generic_syntax

your divisions, 1%-10% and 10%-25% also provide for an overlap, they both count the 10%.

just for your information, the results that i get
percentile $W$W$W$Wkk
in the top 10%46.4%14.56%
in the top 25% not 10%41%26.25%
in the top 40% not 25%6.8%22.2%
in the top 60% not 40%0.75%25.75%
in the bottom 60%5.1%11.22%

the above table is for all combinations of KK. that is there is no restrictions on the 2 accompanying cards.

if you wanted KK where it couldn't make a low, then the 2 accompanying cards could not be low cards of different ranks. i write that as KK!{$L$L}
the ! is not
$L is the macro for low cards
and using {} makes the low cards unpaired.

percentile $W$W$W$Wkk!{$L$L}
in the top 10%46.4%2.69%
in the top 25% not 10%41%18.37%
in the top 40% not 25%6.8%25.94%
in the top 60% not 40%0.75%35.81%
in the bottom 60%5.1%17.18%
Ah thank you I've read the syntax but made that mistake without realizing I'll review the syntax a bunch more. I guess when it says a csmall 2.5% of KKxx is in top 10% of hands it's something like KKAA ds I'll play around and check

Last edited by rickyt88; 05-05-2017 at 04:54 AM.
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Old 05-05-2017, 08:11 AM   #12
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

Generally, high pairs add value to your hand, while low pairs lower the value. E.g. 99 is much better to have in your hand than 88, at least in a multiway pot, because if you hit a set with 99, you are much less likely to have to chop with a low.

That said, a hand like KK75 is usually not playable except out of the blind, or a pure button steal. This is different than an all-high hand like KKQJ, which can also have value in a multiway pot.

In contrast, I am almost always going to play a hand containing A3s, unless there is very strong action ahead of me. It is significantly better than A4; additionally, your trailing cards matter a lot. Having A35K is quite a bit better than A38K.

As for the blinds, I am generally defending all hands, except trips, in a heads-up pot. You can fold a lot of junky Q974 or J933 hands in multiway pots, because it becomes much more difficult to realize your equity postflop. But you want to get in the habit of defending widely. I very much target players I see defending too tight in my games. Defending the SB to a single raise is a little more difficult to define; a lot of this will depend on how the BB plays and how aggressive the game is postflop.
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Old 05-06-2017, 09:10 AM   #13
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

In limit O8 ring games, if you flop top set with Kings, hey, congratulations! You just flopped a drawing hand. If the board doesn't pair you are a dead duck 95% of the time. I learned this from painful experience.

Last edited by freestreetcommando; 05-06-2017 at 09:17 AM.
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Old 05-06-2017, 09:41 PM   #14
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

A couple comments.

Top set of kings is not really a drawing hand, it's just that your opponents have a lot of cumulative outs against you. But you are ahead (assuming you are ahead) and so they should still play to draw out.

In Limit O/8 (as opposed to PLO/8) possibly the most important thing is preflop hand selection and simply playing tight. You can't bluff enough in this game to make up for weak hands.

A2KK is a really good hand if you think about what you're actually trying to achieve in the game. It's very rare you're going to have the double nuts. But you do want to often be in the situation where you have the nuts one way, and a reasonable chance of winning the other way, especially if your opponent shares the nuts one way with you. Therefore, A2 for the nut low along with an overpair of kings is a very good hand, usually.
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Old 05-06-2017, 10:13 PM   #15
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

Quote:
Originally Posted by NickMPK View Post
Generally, high pairs add value to your hand, while low pairs lower the value. E.g. 99 is much better to have in your hand than 88, at least in a multiway pot, because if you hit a set with 99, you are much less likely to have to chop with a low.
This is offset by the fact that you're going to lose to a straight and higher sets way too often. Think about it. If you have a set of 9s and there is no low, then a straight is possible if the board hasn't paired, and if the board has paired then you have the 3rd set.

If you flop a set of 8s, it's much more likely you're going to get the high half of the pot at least, if a low is possible.

Examples

99 on a:
479JQ board (5th nuts)
39QQA board (5th nuts)
439TJ board (5th nuts)
269KQ board (4th nuts)

88 on a:
23558 board (2nd nuts, chop)
A378K board (2nd nuts, chop)
2278Q board (3rd nuts, chop)
468TK board (4th nuts, chop)

But also consider that in the 88 hands, it's more likely that your opponent is going to get counterfeited for the low, and aggressive betting can win the whole pot, unlike the 99 hands. You can possibly scoop the 99 hands, but not because of aggressive betting - only because you had a better high hand than everyone else.
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Old 05-06-2017, 10:14 PM   #16
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

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But you are ahead (assuming you are ahead) and so they should still play to draw out.
s/b "you should still make them pay to draw out"
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Old 05-07-2017, 11:44 AM   #17
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

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Originally Posted by the_spike View Post
This is offset by the fact that you're going to lose to a straight and higher sets way too often. Think about it. If you have a set of 9s and there is no low, then a straight is possible if the board hasn't paired, and if the board has paired then you have the 3rd set.

If you flop a set of 8s, it's much more likely you're going to get the high half of the pot at least, if a low is possible.

Examples

99 on a:
479JQ board (5th nuts)
39QQA board (5th nuts)
439TJ board (5th nuts)
269KQ board (4th nuts)

88 on a:
23558 board (2nd nuts, chop)
A378K board (2nd nuts, chop)
2278Q board (3rd nuts, chop)
468TK board (4th nuts, chop)

But also consider that in the 88 hands, it's more likely that your opponent is going to get counterfeited for the low, and aggressive betting can win the whole pot, unlike the 99 hands. You can possibly scoop the 99 hands, but not because of aggressive betting - only because you had a better high hand than everyone else.
Why didn't you just use examples where you kept the board the same but switched the 9 and the 8. E.g Obviously on a paired board, your hand is stronger if you hold a set over the pair than under the pair. And having a set oer the pair is more likely with 99 than 88. But your example use an overpair for 99 and an underpair for 88.

It is true that when you make a set on an unpaired board with 99 with no low possible, that set will never be better than the 4th nuts. In general, 99 is -not- a good hand. But 88 is a terrible hand. It almost always lowers the value of your other two cards. 99 is mostly playable in combination with other high cards (e.g. 99QJ). 88 isn't really playable in combination with anything.
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Old 05-07-2017, 01:13 PM   #18
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

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99 is mostly playable in combination with other high cards (e.g. 99QJ). 88 isn't really playable in combination with anything.
Nonsense. Not only is A288 a pretty good hand, it's also a better hand than A299. A288 is also a better hand than A266. Whether A233 or A288 is the better hand is debatable. Whenever you have a good low hand, and a card that helps fill your low can also fill your high, then you have good potential. There is no such potential with any 99 hand. There is that potential with 88 hands.

A288 on a 38K flop is way better than A299 on a 39K flop.
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Old 05-07-2017, 10:04 PM   #19
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

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Originally Posted by the_spike View Post
Nonsense. Not only is A288 a pretty good hand, it's also a better hand than A299. A288 is also a better hand than A266. Whether A233 or A288 is the better hand is debatable. Whenever you have a good low hand, and a card that helps fill your low can also fill your high, then you have good potential. There is no such potential with any 99 hand. There is that potential with 88 hands.

A288 on a 38K flop is way better than A299 on a 39K flop.
Sure, A288 is a playable hand, but only because almost any hand with A2 is playable, not because 88 plays well with it in any way. The 88 subtracts significant value from the hand.

It is much worse than a random A2 hand, and -is- in fact worse than A299. The hand is rather similar to A266. A288 is also much worse than A233 in a multiway pot, though somewhat better hot-and-cold heads-up, where there is a nontrivial chance that 88 holds up alone for high.
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Old 05-07-2017, 10:45 PM   #20
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

These debates are over tables were no one ever figures out that you only play A2 etc., in the more real case of a game were they might just fugur this out play is not so easy!
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Old 05-07-2017, 10:49 PM   #21
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

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Originally Posted by NickMPK View Post
Sure, A288 is a playable hand, but only because almost any hand with A2 is playable, not because 88 plays well with it in any way.
How you can ignore the basic facts I presented is beyond me. If you can't see that an 8 "plays with it" then there isn't much more I can say. You do realize what the "8" in O/8 means, right? If you don't like flopping top set and nut low or nut low draw, then I don't know why you even bother playing.

Plug in A288 vs. some various hands, and then A299 vs. the same hands, and see which one does better. A288 has better equity in general. I'm sure that the 8 as an emergency low card has a little something to do with that as well.
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Old 05-07-2017, 10:56 PM   #22
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

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Originally Posted by NickMPK View Post
It is much worse than a random A2 hand
And this is just flat out wrong. Evidence?
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Old 05-07-2017, 11:30 PM   #23
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

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Originally Posted by NickMPK View Post
Generally, high pairs add value to your hand, while low pairs lower the value. E.g. 99 is much better to have in your hand than 88, at least in a multiway pot, because if you hit a set with 99, you are much less likely to have to chop with a low.

That said, a hand like KK75 is usually not playable except out of the blind, or a pure button steal. This is different than an all-high hand like KKQJ, which can also have value in a multiway pot.

In contrast, I am almost always going to play a hand containing A3s, unless there is very strong action ahead of me. It is significantly better than A4; additionally, your trailing cards matter a lot. Having A35K is quite a bit better than A38K.

As for the blinds, I am generally defending all hands, except trips, in a heads-up pot. You can fold a lot of junky Q974 or J933 hands in multiway pots, because it becomes much more difficult to realize your equity postflop. But you want to get in the habit of defending widely. I very much target players I see defending too tight in my games. Defending the SB to a single raise is a little more difficult to define; a lot of this will depend on how the BB plays and how aggressive the game is postflop.
I evaluate kk75 as much more playable (I am ok folding it early full ring without a suit but we should play this more than we fold it)
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Old 05-07-2017, 11:39 PM   #24
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

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How you can ignore the basic facts I presented is beyond me. If you can't see that an 8 "plays with it" then there isn't much more I can say. You do realize what the "8" in O/8 means, right? If you don't like flopping top set and nut low or nut low draw, then I don't know why you even bother playing.

Plug in A288 vs. some various hands, and then A299 vs. the same hands, and see which one does better. A288 has better equity in general. I'm sure that the 8 as an emergency low card has a little something to do with that as well.
I just ran some numbers and the results are clear:
A2xx > a299 > a288

A288 is the worse a2-pair possible from my sims with a266 and a277 also outperforming it, a299 also sims higher than a266 and a277 but not a255 or below

Last edited by monikrazy; 05-07-2017 at 11:47 PM.
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Old 05-08-2017, 12:28 AM   #25
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Re: Plugging O8 Leaks (From LHE to LO8)

Quote:
Originally Posted by the_spike View Post
How you can ignore the basic facts I presented is beyond me. If you can't see that an 8 "plays with it" then there isn't much more I can say. You do realize what the "8" in O/8 means, right? If you don't like flopping top set and nut low or nut low draw, then I don't know why you even bother playing.

Plug in A288 vs. some various hands, and then A299 vs. the same hands, and see which one does better. A288 has better equity in general. I'm sure that the 8 as an emergency low card has a little something to do with that as well.
Heads-up v. Random Hand:

Hand Equity Scoops Wins Hi Ties Hi Wins Lo Ties Lo
a288 55.66% 246,277 304,807 2,829 214,757 14,624
100% 44.34% 179,806 292,364 2,829 77,596 14,624

Hand Equity Scoops Wins Hi Ties Hi Wins Lo Ties Lo
a299 56.06% 243,098 317,465 3,006 185,484 15,216
100% 43.94% 170,909 279,529 3,006 104,970 15,216


Heads-up v. Premium Hand:

Hand Equity Scoops Wins Hi Ties Hi Wins Lo Ties Lo
a288 47.12% 178,366 262,493 10,311 130,094 83,158
10% 52.88% 219,022 327,196 10,311 84,495 83,158

Hand Equity Scoops Wins Hi Ties Hi Wins Lo Ties Lo
a299 47.32% 178,504 266,689 10,666 111,754 96,980
10% 52.68% 211,134 322,645 10,666 100,816 96,980


Multiway pot:

Hand Equity Scoops Wins Hi Ties Hi Wins Lo Ties Lo
a288 25.28% 72,888 126,493 5,643 75,284 96,217
10% 28.43% 98,581 152,427 15,008 52,066 89,435
30% 24.24% 85,611 146,779 13,115 42,951 40,788
100% 22.05% 86,636 154,481 6,849 19,151 9,091

Hand Equity Scoops Wins Hi Ties Hi Wins Lo Ties Lo
a299 28.69% 86,957 131,852 5,699 83,879 112,716
10% 28.04% 82,604 151,771 14,809 59,388 104,641
30% 23.31% 68,582 146,063 12,852 48,791 45,756
100% 19.96% 61,182 150,590 7,044 23,744 10,458

So A299 is very slightly better than A288 heads-up, but much better multiway. I can't find a case where A288 is clearly the better hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by the_spike View Post
And this is just flat out wrong. Evidence?
Hand Equity Scoops Wins Hi Ties Hi Wins Lo Ties Lo
a2 27.54% 67,894 110,242 18,398 102,970 115,742
10% 26.89% 83,890 145,325 19,992 42,010 101,050
30% 23.36% 75,917 148,217 16,400 33,603 44,288
100% 22.21% 80,176 165,380 8,738 14,174 9,089

Note the random A2 is much better than A288, but somewhat worse than A299.
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