In other words, they're buying if for $10-$20?

My guess is they're either hoping to defend against short-stacking or planning to use a short-stacking strategy. (Maybe both). Rolf Slotboom wrote a book about short staking strategy that might be helpful to you. (However, it wasn't easy reading for me... as I recall, I didn't manage to get through the whole book).

Pushing hands after flop-fits makes sense. Showing really weird hands doesn't, except possibly for "advertising." Maybe I'm missing something.

The basics of short-stacking tactics are simple. Buy-in to a full ring game for the minimum possible amount. Fold all but the very best starting hands. When you do get a premium starting hand, limp into the pot, wait for a deep stack to raise, then limp/re-raise the max. When you win, quit, squirrel away your winnings and when you come back, buy in again for the minimum.

There are probably various modifications of the basic strategy outlined above.

The problem is your opponents, especially those with deep stacks, will hate you and will probably refuse to play with you again. Thus you'll have trouble finding opponents.

Hopefully someone else will provide a better response.

Buzz

Is there an updated version of the HUTCHISON system for 6 maxs or heads up

https://www.pokerschoolonline.com/bl...pproach-part-1

http://www.softforpoker.com/count.htm

Hi guys.

A little back story if you don't mind.

I'm former HUSNG player from the times everybody was winning (the good ol days called preBF). I managed to climb to $33 but eventually got beaten down.

Discovered mixed games, liked O8, switched to PLO8 and climbed to successfully beating 0.05-0.10 stakes on PS and FTP in 2011 I guess (or 2012, not sure any more).

Than life kicked in, got my masters degree, had a kid, got a job, got fat etc. The normal stuff. Hadn't played a hand of poker for a long time.

I lost the fat and the kid is old enough now that I get some time to do the things I like. So poker got back in my schedule. I made a deposit a few days back and started playing the micro stakes on PS. I'm planning on posting more frequently on the forum with questions and hands I review.

I do have a few questions:
1. There seems to be less PLO8 games than 4-5 years ago. I only see 1-3 tables of $10 buy in games going at the time. I was playing up to 6 with no problem so I'm wondering what happened? Less players in poker in general? Or people lost interest in PLO8?

2. Since playing I noticed that the rake is absurd at the micros. I paid $2.5 for 1,600 hands at the 0.01-0.02 games yesterday. That comes down to $0.15/100 hands or 7bb/100 hands. I'm not saying this isn't beatable but it's absurd. I don't remember the rake being so high. Has this changed? Does it get better with higher buy-ins? What do you pay at the PLO8 $25 tables in terms or rake?

3. I'm having a hard time playing the "regular" players at this limit. The games are ultra loose passive and I believe I have sort of fancy play syndrome. Any advice for someone like me? Play straight forward I know, but besides that? I'm seeing I'm raising too much. It's almost impossible to get a fold PF so I should stop doing this and maybe start min-raising PF with good hands to build up the pot for when we strike gold. I tend to have an obsession with keeping my red line (non-showndown line) in the positive numbers. I'm guessing I shouldn't worry with this at the micros, correct?

Anyway, I'm hoping to skip a few levels quickly with aggressive BRM as the money I can loose at the micros isn't all that big of a deal. I made a promise to myself that if I'm going to play again I have to post regularly to 2p2 and discuss my stupid moves with the guys that don't do them often

Oh, and what happened with this forum? I was a lurker a few years back and there was a lot more happening?

That's it for know.

Thanks

Hi.

I don't know. I think maybe less players in poker in general.

I think the rake has gotten higher.

Doesn't the site tell you what the rake is?

Play your opponents. I mean modify your game for the particular opponents you're playing.

I don't know.

OK.

I don't know. There has been a decline in interest in poker, including Omaha-8 poker, as compared to several years ago.

You're welcome.

Buzz

Hi Guys,

Could you guys give me a hand for simple advices about what you should never do?

Things like: never fold AA2 pf, KK92 is crap

Thanks,
The biggest donkey in plo8 alive

Never play for more than you can afford to lose.

Buzz

Hi, been a long time NLH player and am thinking about donking around at some FLO8.

I would be playing online. Are the micro stakes beatable? The lowest limits I have seen are .25/.50 and .50/1. If not, which stakes are the inflection point for the rake?

What are the best winrates for the crushers?

Seems like a fun game, just wondering if it is possible to grind up from the micros.

Thanks

I don't know. I imagine they are, at least in theory.

I don't know.

I don't know.

Yes. I think it is.

I don't know. I can't imagine trying. I imagine in theory it is.

Sure. However, I don't feel I've been very helpful to you. I think you have to try the game yourself. See how you fare. Start by playing, reading the other responses in this thread, and reading a good book:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/44...thread-737104/

Buzz

Hey Pros, answer my newb question, please.

- When you have nuts for low in the flop against multiplier opponents, should you cap all the way to the river even expecting someone will split pot low? And against one opponent?

Example:

Hero: A-2-X-X
Board: 5-7-8

I'm not a pro, but I'll try to answer your question.

I think the way you should play any hand depends on how you want your opponents to behave, how you expect your opponents to behave, and whether you're playing pot-limit or fixed-limit.

Against some opponents capping all the way to the river would be a good way to play the nut low. Against other opponents it wouldn't.

I think the way you should play any hand depends on how you want your opponent to behave, how you expect your opponent to behave, and whether you're playing pot-limit or fixed-limit.

Against some opponents capping all the way to the river would be a good way to play the nut low. Against other opponents it wouldn't.

So let me get this straight. In a fixed-limit game, an opponent bets, you raise, an opponent re-raises, and you want to know if you should make it four bets? I guess the answer is, "It depends." The reason it depends is because your other two cards matter and the way you expect your opponent(s) to react matters.

Buzz

6 handed what is the probability if i have A2xx that a other player has AAxx?
From my experience on stars it happens 90% of the time,but that seems a bit high

When you have A2xx and neither x is an ace, there are three missing aces and 45 missing non-aces.

There are 3*45*44/2+1*45=3015 ways each other opponent could have a pair of aces. That's out of C(48,4)=194580 possible hands each other opponent could have.
3015/194580=0.0155.
I think that's small enough to multiply by the number of opponents to get a close enough approximation.
0.0155*5=0.0775 or 7.75%
I'd round down and call it ~7.7%. I think that's two digit close.

Buzz

first off, hello to the forum! as you can tell by my post count, i´m new.
i have recently started to play the 6max hypers on pokerstars, could somebody tell me how many of them i can expect to run in an hour at $3.5 and $7 levels on an average day?
is it necessary to combine the hypers with 18mans to get good volume?

thanks

Hi. Welcome to the forum.

I don't know.

Perhaps there's a way to ask pokerstars directly. Try
https://www.pokerstars.com/poker/room/support/faq/
Or just see for yourself.

I wondered if someone else would respond... but it has been a couple of days, and no luck.

(I don't understand your question. Are you looking to multi-table?)

I don't know what a "good volume" would be. (Seems to me it's relative).

You're welcome. (However, I don't think I was much help to you).

Buzz

is this game still beatable at the micros with the rake?i like this game alot but if its not beatable because of rake then there is no point to plya it for me

I don't know. Try it and see for yourself.

If you're enough better than your opponents, you should be able to win money playing Omaha-8.

Don't play where the rake seems too high.

Buzz

(Sorry this is related to Fixed Limit O8)

Would you open with a hand AsAhKdTc?

If so, in what position in either a FR or 6-Max game?

Depends. It's not a very good starting hand, but it's not horrid either.

In general, I don't like starting hands with no chance at low, and I also don't like rainbow hands... and neither should you. However, it does have those aces and the cards fit reasonably well together.

Thus I'd like to see the flop. But whether to open or limp would depend mostly on the particular opponents I was facing. And it would depend on whether the game was fixed-limit, pot-limit, or no-limit.

For me it depends. And just to note, position is more important in pot-limit than in fixed-limit.

So there are a lot of variables. If you're interested in the general strength of a starting hand, a good place to look is ProPokerTools.
http://www.propokertools.com/simulations?g=o8

Buzz

Thanks Buzz!

Questions are regarding Fixed Limit.

How you decide if limp or raise based on opponents' tendencies?

For AA-high-high hands, the most important thing is how many players are likely going to the flop. If you're fairly sure 2 or more will come along, then definitely raise since your hand will most likely be ahead as a roughly 40% favorite 3-handed going into the flop(rainbow might be slightly lower). Where your hand performs poorly is HU, since any lo cards in your opponents hand will have a ton of extra implied value. Hands with low suited connectors will have you crushed HU.

Good question!

Here are ProPokerTools simulation results against one opponent with random cards and against six opponents with random cards.

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
AsAhKdTc	52.91%	251,689	379,091	4,671	0	0
****	47.09%	216,238	216,238	4,671	215,999	0

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
AsAhKdTc	16.16%	61,469	124,691	8,661	0	0
****	16.80%	42,726	88,385	12,468	64,852	17,391
****	16.80%	42,663	88,162	12,457	65,083	17,188
****	16.77%	42,589	88,251	12,489	64,762	17,332
****	16.74%	42,473	88,033	12,573	64,467	17,391
****	16.72%	42,498	87,938	12,488	64,531	17,090

As you can see, you're slightly ahead (53:47) of one opponent with random cards, but you're slightly behind each other opponent in a six handed game.

The difference is because when the board is paired when heads-up, your two pairs, aces over, will usually win (and when the board is paired, there's less chance of low being enabled). Or some other two card combination (AK, AT, or KT) might make a winner for you, possibly as a straight, or maybe just the pair of aces will win.

But against five opponents, you'll probably have to make a full house, flush, or straight to win. In other words you generally need to improve more against more opponents. The aces alone, or two pairs with aces isn't as strong against multiple opponents.

And if you play this hand to the showdown each time, that's usually what you'll end up with... aces alone, or two pairs with aces. (When that's what you end up with, you have to decide whether it's good enough to win or not).

If you have identified a weaker opponent than you in the game, someone who makes more mistakes than you, you can't win his money unless you're in a hand with him. With AAKT-rainbow, you should want to isolate the weaker opponent so as to play him one-on-one. If the weaker opponent has already put in a bet, you raise, hoping to make it more difficult for your other opponents to continue. In that way, you may succeed in isolating a weak opponent.

There's more to playing poker than just that, but that's some of the pre-flop reasoning involved. After the flop, depending on the cards you see and your opponent's tendencies, you raise for various reasons.

Buzz

I read somewhere that hands like 3c4c5d6d are trash in full ring but well above average in a three or four handed game.

However Propokertools shows that the rank of 3c4c5d6d goes down from 10H (16) -> 6H (20) -> 3H (29). Anyone has an explanantion for the contridiction?

Also, if you just look at the rank of 3c4c5d6d for 10H (ranking 16), it's about the same as a hand like As4hKdQc. Is 3c4c5d6d really a "trash" hand?

That hand is much better multiway than heads up. Would call any and all raises pf with that hand in limit. So i think whoever wrote what you read is either wrong or not talking about limit o8.

ProPokerTools Rankings for 3c4c5d6d

Ranking	Description	Average	Best	Worst
10H	10-handed iterative (default)	16.0	16.0	16.0
6H	6-handed iterative	20.0	20.0	20.0
3H	3-handed iterative	29.0	29.0	29.0
VR	vs. random hand	38.0	38.0	38.0

I listed the six handed row above the three handed row. Otherwise the rankings are copied directly from ProPokerTools.

Here are rankings for a corresponding rainbow hand:
Rankings for 3c4h5d6s

Ranking	Description	Average	Best	Worst
10H	10-handed iterative (default)	41.0	41.0	41.0
6H	6-handed iterative	55.0	55.0	55.0
3H	3-handed iterative	73.0	73.0	73.0
VR	vs. random hand	88.0	88.0	88.0

Again I listed the six handed row above the three handed row. Otherwise the rankings are copied directly from ProPokerTools.

The rankings shown in the tables are all show down (no fold 'em) rankings. (Lower is better). A group of hands is simulated against the hand shown, and no hand folds even when obviously having little or no chance after the flop, turn, or river. But in a real game both of these hands come in second best a lot.

Second best is the worst hand in poker.

As you can see, double suited 3456 fares substantially better than a corresponding rainbow hand, 3456 in showdown simulations. The difference is evidently due to 3456 winning more hands by making flushes.

However in a real game it may be hard for you to realize full value for
3456. In general, you tend to play any flush once you make it, but you don't want to be drawing for a flush headed by a four or headed by a six. In general, you can't tell where you are if you're drawing for any flush lower than 2nd nut (and some tight Omaha-8 players don't like to draw for anything but a nut flush).

Of course a lot depends on how your opponents are playing.

With 3456 you'd be primarily drawing for low or a low straight. If you made low, it would win sometimes, but it would also be second best a lot. Same for low straights... second best much of the time.

So that's a possible explanation for you.

Buzz