Thanks.

Buzz and others, for a beginners going from L08 to PL08

what are some major differences? in terms of hand reqs and stuff like that

See Hwang's first book, the one with the green cover. (Even though it's mostly about PLO high, it does a good job contrasting the 2 o8 variations. Not really more that's profitable to add to that.

You could write a whole book on this, but for starters I guess I would think about post-flop play being different. In a somewhat loose limit game, players can, will, and even should call a bet with a number of draws on the flop.

In PLO8, postflop play will usually require a stronger hand to call a bet, and likewise might require less to make a bet because you can bet more and push people out, especially in a raised pot.

Position plays an important role too, although I don't play enough limit to comment on the differences there. Perhaps someone else can.

I have it, never read the PL section. I always said to myself I would never play PL8 because it seems daunting and variance would be high as hell and more difficult for me to grasp then Lo8. but L08 is rarely run and I see PL8 being run a bit more

I m just loathing a the thought of having to play low draws in PL

in limit its not that expensive but in PL, im guessing low draws can be expensive

Right, so you need to make sure you are pursuing hands that have more than just a low draw. In limit you can probably chase a low to the river and make money from it. Even if you get quartered it might not cost too much since (A): a limit hand might have more players contributing to the pot and (B): you won't have to commit your whole stack.

In PL, getting quartered because you had no high draw can be devastating in an all-in situation.

i need to read hwangs section then, cause I feel i would be a little lost with starting hand reqs in PL

playing just the low and low draw, do we ever bet a nut low draw into the field? of lets say 2 or 3 others? hwang says to play passive on 1 way hands. especially nut low hands.

just wondering how aggressive we can play nut low made hands and nut low draws

There are four betting rounds. Which betting round(s) are you asking about?

In my opinion, in order to be a consistent winner you need to scoop more than your fair share. The way you do that is by clever betting so as to convert one-way hands into scoopers. In other words, when you have a winning low hand but a poor high hand, you want opponents with better high hands to fold. How might you accomplish getting them to fold? Of course since your opponents do not all play the same a tactic will work well against one opponent won't work against another.

I think it depends on how your opponents play. It also depends whether you're playing fixed-limit, pot-limit, or no-limit. Getting fractionated (quartered, sixthed, or eighthed) in a fixed-limit game usually isn't a big deal... you might even end up making some money. But getting quartered in a pot-limit or no-limit game can be a financial disaster. And it depends on position, more so in pot-limit than in fixed-limit.

Post some hand histories with your questions in separate threads in the forum and you may get better, more specific answers.

Buzz

I mean, in a sentence you really couldn't say it any better. I know it's lame that the answer to everything in poker is "It depends," so Buzz has given good suggestions of what it depends on. You really have to use your best poker judgment. Good judgment comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgment.*

I would tend to semibluff nut low draws (without a great high hand or high draw) if:

• there are fewer opponents
• opponents are playing fit-and-fold on the flop
• I have even a weak redraw or two to high, e.g. gutshot + BDF
• I'm in position.

I would also tend to bluff my complete misses with the NLD on the river when:

• there are fewer opponents
• I don't expect my opponents to have enough high value to call, because:
  • I know these opponents often tend to draw at the naked nut or non-nut lows (which missed), without high value, or
  • There are prominent missed high draws, e.g. a flush missed
• I'm in position.
• I have very little showdown value (e.g. less than second pair)

In context I thought this was about PLO8, but I now see that may not be true. I wrote the above for PL, but much would apply to FL. However, I would often value bet naked NLD in fixed limit because pots are typically multiway and I expect many calls from non-nut LD.


*Thanks, Manager Tools.

yeah i was talking about PL

mostly about flop play

havent played any hands yet but I just KNOW i ll bleed money on flops with nut low draws. I am trying to study out how to handle nut low draws with little high value on flops with 3 people involved.

at micro levels, players are going to be a bit more passive or loose and more apt to call and overvalue hands. but If I have a nut low draw with nothing else and I face a 2/3 or pot sized bet, even if its a huge fish, i dont see hwo calling is profitable, thats just gambling with - ev

Interesting.

There are some very strong posters to this forum, probably better Omaha-8 players than I am, who suggest suggest playing passively on one way hands. I vaguely wonder how many of them suggest playing that way because they developed playing styles by following Hwang's advice.

No matter.

I probably got some of my ideas of how to play from reading Hwang too.

At any rate, I don't think playing Omaha-8 poker is quite as simple as saying always do this or always do that.

My idea (probably not original) is you play your opponents. That is you figure out how your opponents are playing and then somewhat adapt your own playing style to theirs. You do whatever works against your current opponents. To do that, you watch them carefully and remember how each of them plays. And then when an opportunity arises, you take advantage of it. (I think probably some of them are using that same general strategy against you).

The strategy some pot-limit Omaha-8 players follow is to try to quarter opponents with the nut low. (In order to do this, they have to also have the nut low - and in addition a strong high).

To counter this strategy, in general, I would prefer to keep the pot initially small.

I think selectively aggressively rather than willy-nilly aggressively. And there's a big difference between nut low made hands and nut low draws.

Buzz

3 people involved means 2 opponents.

Betting or raising initiates "fresh money" into the pot. When you're playing for the whole pot and you have 2 opponents matching your contribution, you break even on fresh money if you win half as often as you lose (if the probability of making your draw is 1/3).

But when you're playing for half of the pot, with 2 opponents you're only winning half of what one opponent contributes. (You split or "push" with the opponent who wins high). You break even on fresh money if you win twice as often as you lose (if the probability of making your draw is 2/3).

It's a bit more complicated than that, especially when you're trying for low, because of the chance of getting fractionated (quartered, sixthed, or worse).

Buzz

Thanks for the replies.

IM gonna play some tables this week and see what situations I get to and post them here. I feel facing pot size bets on the flop with only a nut low draw is burning money even against really loose opponents. unless i know they are possibly drawing to low hands WORSE than I. The I can see how its opponent dependent and i can continue on

You're welcome.

It's probably cheaper to get a feeling for the frequency of nut lows when playing fixed-limit. The frequency is the same as pot-limit.

But, of course, the play of nut lows is different when playing pot-limit.

Buzz

PL question.

Hwang says we should never bet nut low draws into a field. That completely baffles me. He says we can if we are last to act.

Even if we have the nut low on the flop with no high, why not bet even if first to act? Especially if opponents ARe willing to call with 2nd tier low draws and such

http://www.jeffhwang.com/

But don't we lose value or lose potential money if we never try to bet our nut lows in loose tables?

I suppose so.

If you want to discuss Jeff Hwang's book, a more appropriate thread in which to have that discussion might be the stickied book thread:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/44...thread-737104/

Buzz

Because in general in big-bet poker it's not good to be OOP in a multiway pot with a weak drawing hand (drawing at half the pot is inherently weak) and little idea where we stand.

Never is probably better advice for someone learning the game than virtually never, but maybe there are some rare cases. I can use my imagination to come up some rare exceptions to this rule, but the situation would have to be just perfect--two opponents would need to be weak/tight ones who routinely chase non-nut lows and pay off, but don't call loose on the river without a low. So I can win by catching my low (and a weak high) and getting paid off or by missing low and bluffing.

Even then, I really need some hopes for high. But even overcards can form a weak high draw that combines with a NLD to give you some value. If you bet AKQ2 into two opponents OOP on 973r, you're really hoping to take down the pot immediately, but could win high if called on a board like 973K3.

But again, seriously, don't make a habit of these bets. I'm just trying to come up with exceptions to Hwang's rule to show that poker rules generally have exceptions. Instead, /et your opponents play big pots OOP; you benefit from the imbalance of playing more, bigger pots IP than they get to play against you.

Wow, what a non sequitur. Two posts before that you were talking about OOP, into a field, and (I thought) without high equity. Now you've turned it into a much broader rule. You do understand that this topic completely changes when you're talking about IP vs OOP because everything in big bet changes with position, yes?

Hwang is not saying you can't bet your A2 on J54 even though you don't have a "made high".
So how about saving this concern about speculative value bets for those hands where we have reasonable high equity?

At least for new big bet O8 players, I agree with Hwang. Don't semibluff naked NLD OOP until you really know what you're doing.

thanks that makes perfect sense.

I just thought in general at the lower limits, I see my opponents frequently chasing 2nd nut lows and playing 2nd nut lows frequently so I thought my nut low could extract value. but I understand what you are saying.


question, you guys are ALWAYS buying in for 100BB in PL games right?

Also, ive come across multiple A2QJ, AA26, A3JQ hands where I get in EP or LP and they are not suited (the ace specifically) are these unsuited hands still worth raising with? I have been calling a lot with these hands and open limping because I feel without strong suits these hand arent that strong. Is this a massive leak?

No.

I think whether to raise or not is situation and opponent specific. In my opinion, those are all good, playable starting hands.

You can look up ProPokerTools ratings for them yourself:
http://www.propokertools.com/simulations?g=o8
Omaha Hi/Lo Hand Ranking (unweighted) ?

Rankings for A2QJ

Ranking	Description	Average	Best	Worst
10H	10-handed iterative (default)	4.36	2.0	7.0
6H	6-handed iterative	4.78	3.0	8.0
3H	3-handed iterative	5.95	3.0	11.0
VR	vs. random hand	7.31	3.0	15.0

Rankings for A3QJ

Ranking	Description	Average	Best	Worst
10H	10-handed iterative (default)	7.27	4.0	13.0
6H	6-handed iterative	7.02	3.0	13.0
3H	3-handed iterative	7.25	3.0	14.0
VR	vs. random hand	8.22	4.0	16.0

Rankings for AA62

Ranking	Description	Average	Best	Worst
10H	10-handed iterative (default)	1.0	1.0	1.0
6H	6-handed iterative	1.0	1.0	1.0
3H	3-handed iterative	1.0	1.0	1.0
VR	vs. random hand	1.0	1.0	1.0

No. I don't think it's necessarily a massive leak. But neither do I believe you're thinking in the best way. It's not what you do with each particular hand... it's what you do against each particular opponent. In other words, you might play a hand one way against Opponent A and that's the best way to play Opponent A... and then you might play the same hand differently against Opponent B... and that's the best way to play the hand against Opponent B.

I think you'll get a better opinion/response if you post your questions somewhere other than the beginner's thread. They're not exactly what I consider newb type questions. And opinions differ. Also you might consider getting a good coach. (I'm not interested).

Buzz

Been at the .2\.5 plo8 tables recently.

A lot of people, like 4-6 at a time are buying in for 20-40bbs. Wondering what their intentions are? I usually see them push hands hard on flops and some of them are showing some really weird hands.. occasionally ill see a person or two play fit fold with 1$ stacks on flop. Wondering if someone can comment their strat.