Buzz's advice is good. I'd also look up Steve Badger's old old stuff if you want free material.

I found one pearl that I like just now, while looking up his site to validate that I wasn't sending you on a wild goose chase:
Learn this. Learn this learn this learn this. You start trying to get fancy and open your game up with AK64 UTG at your own peril! Don't play marginal stuff except in very specific situations, especially not if your skills are rusty.


As for videos, I've always found Deuces Cracked's O8 content excellent but more applicable to tough games. Some of the old Joe Tall mixed game videos (I think there's one where danzasmack is just learning O8, which seems funny to me) cover the very basics. I think you can still join free for a week.

No idea about other sites.

I only asked because I have read on several sites including 2+2 that small sets tend to be quite vulnerable pending on board texture and how many players see the flop. In low buy in games, several people will tag along in a raised pot or not.

Say you are dealt Kc6h6s3c in the bb in a limped pot with 6 other players. Flop comes 567 rainbow with one club. Scary example... in this spot I'm hardly in love with it. Even IP (I'm folding this hand pre button or not) I'd be far from overjoyed. I have seen countless of players bust out in similar spots. I'm checking this for sure. What turn card are we looking for besides a 5 or the case 6?

Lets forget about sets for the moment and alter the scenario. Same hand and position in a limped pot on a Ac9d2h board. Are we going to stick with our 36 low draw with confidence?

The only good thing about K663 is that we got to see the flop for free because we were in the BB. These and similar random hands was what I was referring to. Was over tired when I posted. That's what too much coffee in a day gets you.

Am I wrong and if so why? That's why I avoid hands like this because the decisions for the most part won't be easy.

Short answer: No, you're absolutely right. Pocket sixes are generally worse than a six and a blank, probably even six-nine.


Long answer: I thought your first post was talking about QQ and KK, perhaps JJ and rarely TT. Those can reasonably flop set on occasion.

While small sets have some value when no one else makes a good hand, their implied odds are terrible (especially in big bet games). Rarely you'll make one outside the blinds with something like A339. You should probably bet any set in position, and you can certainly catch bluffs in appropriate spots. Don't tend to hang onto these hands OOP or against strong ranges; your RIO are just too great.

Conversely that's part of why I like playing QQ in position with good implied odds. I can flop set over set and stack the pocket fives or whatever.

I don't think I can improve on AKQJ10's answer.

I agree.

In general, I consider any pairs lower than queens more of a liability than an asset in Omaha-8.

That written, I might play a hand that includes cards I consider a liability. (Whether I would or not would depend on the exact situation).

And many Omaha-8 players regularly play hands that contain a small pair, perhaps believing the small pair to be an asset.

Not a very good starting hand. I think the strongest asset in
K663 is the suited king. I think the pair of sixes is a liability. That's just my opinion.

You're making a case against playing starting hands with small pairs.

But the thread in which you are making your case is a thread reserved for newb's questions.

No. (I'm not).

I agree that K663 is a poor starting hand in pot-limit Omaha-8.

But again, you're making your case in a thread reserved for newb's questions. If you want to discuss this topic, please start a thread or use the monthly miscellaneous thread. Thanks.

Sounds right to me.

Buzz

Fixed my own post. Thanks for your kind words, Buzz.

Low pairs are terrible because
- They don't hit top set often
- They bring a low card
- They make underfulls

They are a handicap but they can still be part of good hands.

what do you guys usually buy if for in 4/8 limit O8 in general ?

am thinking I should do $150 is that too much are too low? and also thinking no more than losing two or three buy ins in one session, thoughts on that ?

thanks

edit* in live games

I usually buy in for a rack ($100 or $200). $150 is fine.

Buzz

yeah probably $200 for me, with the hope that I never have to get too deep into it!

should have posted ehre first but im a noob at plo8. i started playing on lock and really fell for the hi/lo aspect, also been dabbling in stud h/l as well.

Its a more fun game imo compared to NLHE. anyways im startin to play O8 4/8k more live now instead of auto sitting at the low limit NL games.

just wanted to post and say thanks to the few replies ive gotten so far here.

what are typical winrates and standard deviations for limit8, plo8, and nl8 in terms of bb/100?

Agree, NLHE is the second most boring form of poker.

What is the most boring? Draw? Indian?

Hey guys,

Been playing Omaha8 for one week. Trying to figure out a tight range of starting hands I should be playing as a beginner. Here is the list I have made. Wondering what you guys think, if there are any errors etc. Such as, is AA45 way to strong to fold in Early Position. Another thing I am concerned about this, is it ok to fold A-A-x-x hands, such as A-A-K-6 single suited in late position. This list is for a 10-handed fixed limit game. Thanks

Early Position

A-A-2-x
A-A-3-x
A-2-3-x
A-2-4-x
A-2-K-K
A-2-Q-Q
A-2-J-J
A-2-K-Q
A-2-K-J
A-2-x-x (Suited Ace)

Middle Position

A-A-4-5
A-3-4-x
A-3-K-K

Late Position

A-h-h-h
A-A-w-x
A-A-h-h
A-A-s-s

x= any card
w= wheel card
h= High card, K-10
s= suited

I won't be playing any hand that contains trips. Aka. If i get dealt AAA-2 in early position I won't play.

Just to clarify A-A-s-s means any double suited Aces.

I understand that this doesn't adjust for table conditions, but I am a complete beginner in Omaha8, I can barely read the low board lol. Hope you guys like this list

Hello.

Yes, AA45, even as a rainbow, is too strong to fold in early position in a fixed-limit game.

Folding AAK6 single suited is too tight, even for a beginner. .

Those should all be playable for you. But I think it's too tight to only play those starting hands.

Since you will play two cards from your hand to make your best high hand and also two cards from your hand to make your best low hand, try to think in two-card combinations. And for low, you like a back-up, a third rank of wheel card for counterfeit protection, ideally as low as possible.

If your starting hand has four different ranks, then there are six two-card combinations per each four-card starting hand.

If your starting hand has a pair, two of the two-card combinations are effectively the same, leaving you with only four effective two-card combinations. This is generally a disadvantage... however, note that the very best Omaha-8 starting hand of all (A3)(A2) contains a pair (of aces). But also note that three of the four two-card combinations involved with (A3)(A2) are very strong. AA, (A3), and (A2) are all very strong starting combinations. 32 is not considered a very strong starting combination.

The five best starting two-card combinations in Omaha-8 are (A2), (A3), AA, A2, and A3.

(A2), (A3), AA all have great high potential, while (A2), A2 (A3), and A3 can be strong for low. Any two card combination, including A2 and A3 sometimes makes the best high combination, but the main reason A2 and A3 are decent combinations for high is they both contain an ace.

(A4), A4, (AK), (A5), and (AQ) are arguably the next best two-card combinations to hold.

Notably KK, QQ, and JJ are all missing from the top echelon. Note that all of these are top tier starting hand holdings when playing Texas hold 'em (although you can get in trouble with any of them, especially queens and jacks).

Also missing are any middle cards, sixes, sevens, eights, and nines. Tens and jacks are missing too.

OK. That's very tight. The game is Omaha-8, but you're still playing poker. You should probably bluff less than in various other poker games, but your opponents won't necessarily play ideally. The way you win at poker is by "playing your opponents," by modifying your play as necessary to best cope with the idiosyncrasies of the particular opponents with whom you are playing. My idea is Omaha-8 beginners should start out playing very tightly so they can observe how their opponents are playing, so they can learn the game. The reason I think you should play tightly as a beginner is so that you can better focus on the play of your opponents and learn the game. I'm not advising you to play tightly because I think that's the optimal way to play the game. I'm advising you to play tightly (and probably "leave some money on the table" in the process) in order to better learn how each of your opponents plays the game.

Of the four groups of hands you've listed, A-h-h-h is possibly the weakest and most difficult for a newb to play. (I think you'll often end up with two pairs and then you'll have to judge when your two pairs is good and when it should be folded... not the easiest of decisions for a newb, in my humble opinion.

Bit if you get a coach who disagrees with me, then follow your coach's advice, not mine. Maybe he/she uses an approach that will make A-h-h-h hands winners for you as a newb.

OK.

Well... for that one I'd make an exception. Note that AAA2 has two of those five top two card combinations.

Buzz

Thanks buzz!

You're welcome.

You might find it useful to look up how various hands or two card combos are ranked by ProPokerTools.
http://www.propokertools.com/simulations?g=o8

For example, you have A2JJ listed as playable. Why not look at ProPokerTools rankings to see why.

Here are the various two-card combinations within
A,2,J,J:
A,2**
A,J** plays same as A,J**
2,J** plays same as 2,J**
J,J**

In other words, if you want to know which of the two-card combinations within A,2,J,J make the hand playable look at the ranking for each two-card combination (plus two blank or random cards).

Here are the ten handed rankings, copied from ProPokerTools.

Hand	Average	Best	Worst
Ac2d*h*s	14.41	1.0	92.0
AcJh*d*s	29.83	1.0	100.0
AcJs*d*h	29.83	1.0	100.0
2dJh*c*s	73.62	1.0	100.0
2dJs*c*h	73.62	1.0	100.0
JhJs*c*d	71.73	6.0	100.0

Look at the average rankings. (lower is better, 50 is average)
The average for A2n is 14.41.
The average for AJn is 29.83.
The average for 2Jn is 73.62.
The average for JJn is 71.73.
“n” means non-suited.

The only two card combination we really like in
A,2,J,J is the ace-deuce combination. The ace-jack isn’t horrid, but the deuce-jack and jack-jack both are horrid.

The only time you'll like JJ** is when the ** part is great (like A2 or AA... or maybe A3, A4s, or A5s)

Fool around yourself trying out various two card combinations. See for yourself which ones are good and which are not.

Ask here if you need help.

Buzz

Hey Buzz,

I took all your advice and revised my list. I put A-A-4-5 in early position, I'm playing any A-A-x-x in late position. I added more hands everywhere, and i changed A-h-h-h to A-h-h-h (double suited or single suited with a pair). Wanted to know your thoughts on this revised list. Thanks!

Omaha High/Low Split 8-or Better Starting Hands

Early Position

A-A-2-x
A-A-3-x
A-A-4-5
A-2-3-x
A-2-4-x
A-3-4-x
A-2-K-K
A-2-Q-Q
A-2-J-J
A-2-K-Q
A-2-K-J
A-2-x-x (Suited Ace)
A-3-K-K

Middle Position

A-A-4-x
A-A-5-x
A-2-x-x
A-3-5-x
A-3-h-h
A-3-x-x (Suited Ace)

Late Position

A-A-x-x
A-h-h-h (Double Suited or Single Suited with a pair)

If you insist on having a specific list, I think you made some improvements going from list #1 to list #2.

For example, AA45 is a premium hand, a top 1% hand, and I agree you should play the hand from early position.

I think I see what you're doing (compiling a list of playable hands for early, middle and position play). It's the approach many beginning players use. I did it myself.

But I think a better and faster way to learn the game is to you focus on the various two-card combinations within each Omaha-8 hand. (There are the same number of these as there are Texas hold 'em starting hands). Start by learning what the better two-card combos are and also what the poorer two-card combos are. You don't exactly seem to be doing that.

Meh. Whatever. There are lots of ways to approach this game. And as soon as possible you want to get to a mental place where you're outplaying your opponents more than you're playing the cards in your own hand.

At any rate, if I did the math correctly, your revised list will have you playing something in the neighborhood of between four and five per cent of the hands dealt to you in early position. That's very tight for a fixed-limit game. (I don't think you'll have much fun in early position).

Just my opinion.

Buzz

Thanks buzz!

A home game I play in runs the Big O........5 card PLO H/L

I've played a few times and done well, but have definitely encountered a lot of confusing WTF spots. It seems like strategy info on this game is kind of tough to come by...any resources anywhere that might be helpful?

I don't know of any, other than this forum. Pot limit hand histories, regardless of whether four or five cards are dealt to each player are labeled with a . And I think all big O (meaning five cards are dealt to each player, and usually pot-limit, though sometimes fixed-limit or no-limit) posts are labeled as "big O," "big O8," or "five card O8." You should be able to find them by looking at the thread labels.

Each four card hand without a pair has a possibility of six two-card combinations. (You need to play two card combinations in Omaha or Omaha-8). Each five card hand without a pair has a possibility of ten two-card combinations. Thus the increase in possibilities going from the four card game to the five card game is 10/6 or 1.67X, rather than 5/4 or 1.25X. I don't know if that makes sense to you or not. In other words, among other things, you're about 10/6 more likely to encounter the nuts in the five card game than in the four card game.

You still want to play to scoop, and you need the nuts more for some hand types than others. You especially need the nuts for low, and then probably for straights.

Since an opponent is roughly 10/6 more likely to have an ace of the flush suit with another specific card of the flush suit in the five card game than in the four card game, you need to be more wary with the king flush in the five card game as opposed to the four card game.

And when the board pairs, an opponent is roughly 5/4 more likely to have a card the same rank as the pair and more than 10/6 more likely to either have another card to go with that rank to make a full house or to have a pair to go with one of the other ranks on the board. Thus multiple full houses when the board pairs are more common. You want one of the better ones.

Basically you need better matches with the flop in the five card game than in the four card game.

Those are a few opinions of mine, but I've played the game mostly as a fixed-limit game. Probably some of our other posters who may not read this newb's thread have better ideas about the game, especially as played pot-limit, than I do. Thus if you have specific questions, it's probably better for you to post them as separate threads, rather than asking them in the newb's thread (because you'll probably get more better and more varied responses).

Good luck.

Buzz

hey everybody,

i'm trying to get into limit O8, right now i play .25/.50, and after 1.5k hands...yeah, i know, that's a small sample...i'm down quite a bit, about -3 BB
Now, when looking at my positional stats, everything is green but the blinds.
My question is, does it mean i play too many hands from the blinds? Eg. from 266 hands dealt in the BB i played 57%, but called only 11%.
Does it mean that i chase too much from the blinds? Like...ok I'm getting 8:1, let's see a flop, then ending up by calling a flop bet (because it's cheap) and after that folding the turn because my hand did not improve and/or has no potential.
In case my question makes sense to you, any advice is really welcome.

I guess you're kidding. (-3BB is only $1.50).

And you're right that 1.5k hands is too small a sample.

No. Assuming you're not playing heads up, you more or less should expect to lose money when you post the blinds.

I can't tell from that data.

I try to make my decision as to whether to continue or not with a hand as soon as possible.

I think of the small blind as quite different from the big blind. I give some consideration to playing the big blind in O8 in such a way as to discourage attacks. That's not part of my thinking when playing the small blind. I think you generally either need a strong hand or intend to attack the big blind in order to play the small blind. (Thus I usually fold the small blind).

Whether or not I fold the big blind to an attack depends on various factors too involved to discuss in this thread.

Post some hand histories as separate threads if you want more specific responses.

Buzz