Your best low is (A2) from your hand and (367) from the board for 7632A. This is known as a "live ace" and you'd tie A3, A6, A7 and lose to A4, A5, 45 as they all make a 6 low.

Thanks OD, I appreciate it.

hey guys... i'm a newbie in omaha hilo

i am just learning the game (reading jeff hwangs PLO book, i'm a decent PLO player) and there's this one hand where i lost 3/4 of the pot... and i don't know why...


GAME #5061806862: Omaha Hi-Lo PL $0.01/$0.02 - 2013-08-28 15:40:43
Table Cloondara
Server poker2.ipoker.com

Seat 1: xx ($4.35 in chips)
Seat 3: xx ($0.99 in chips)
Seat 5: Hero ($6.16 in chips)
Seat 6: xx ($3.88 in chips)
Seat 8: Villain ($2.74 in chips)
Seat 10: xx ($5.42 in chips)

sssava: SB $0.01
riky831: BB $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero[C2 C4 D3 DA]
xx: Fold
xx: Fold
xx: Call $0.02
Hero: Raise To $0.09
xx: Fold
villain: Raise To $0.30
xx: Fold
Hero: Call $0.21
*** FLOP *** [C3 CA DJ]
Villain: Bet $0.63
Hero: Call $0.63
*** TURN *** [C3 CA DJ S10]
Villain: Bet $1.78
Hero: Raise To $3.56
Villain: Allin $0.03
*** RIVER *** [C3 CA DJ S10 H10]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Hero: shows [C2 C4 D3 DA] (Two pair)
Villain: shows [D5 C6 HA H3] (Two pair)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $6.90 Rake $0.36
Hero: wins $1.75
Villain: wins $5.15

my question is... why did he win 3/4 of the pot?

this is mind boggling for a newbie...

There is no low because there are not three low ranks on the board.

To make an Omaha-8 hand, you must use exactly 3 cards from the board and exactly 2 cards from your hand. For the high, you both use the
A,T, and T from the board.
(Two pair, aces and tens with a 4 kicker)
(Two pair, aces and tens with a 6 kicker)
You either typed something incorrectly or the site made an error. He should have won the whole pot.

Buzz

He won the whole pot. If you look at his starting stack you can see he doubled up, minus rake.

The $1.75 you 'won' is money you raised but that he could never call since he doesn't have enough chips to do so. Its just a silly thing some sites do.

Another way to look at it would be be say blinds are $1/$2 and you move all in for $200, and someone else when shoves for $1,000. The guy with $1,000 will always 'win' his $800 back.

You could never win it, but the site still considers it part of the pot and awards it back to him (rather than just calling the pot $403 and simply returning the $800 to him before any other cards are dealt).

Hope I've made sense.

Makes great sense. Thank you for the correction.

Somehow I didn't look at And that makes it clear.

Buzz

ohh right.... what an idiot i am...

thanks guys for the answers

Does anybody know if NL Coucheval Hi Lo is counted as Omaha Hi Lo on OPR, or does it go under "Others"?

Judging by your own 120-day OPR ('All Poker Results' tab), 5-card O8 is counted as O8, but, strangely, Courchevel results are under 'Others'. So the Courchevel bustouts aren't spoiling your O8 stats

How is the variance in FLO8? Anyone care to share a few graphs?

It's going to depend on how you play and how your opponents play. I think more conservative play has less variance.

Buzz

And how many buy ins you guys advice for NLO8?

depends on your stake:

at nlo8 2$ till 10$ something like 15-20 buyins should be enough to not go busto, also you want to move up quickly, as the rake is very high at micro stakes.
for 25$-50$ i would increase to 30 bi and 100$+ 40bi, imo.
its an agressive brm but should work if you are prepared to move down, once you hit a threshold

Thanks,
Based on 100 big blinds buy in?

Based on my experience I would say that typical live LO8 games are the lowest variance form of poker available. The biggest downswing on this graph is losing 20BBs in a 50/100 game.

[IMG]http://s22.************/uja298xch/photo.png[/IMG]

Solid graph Donk Q, thanks.
How is it for the online part tho anyone?

I'm looking for articles/books/stickys for beginner/intermediate Omaha hi-lo and was wondering what resource is best to start with?

Hi all,

Just starting out with PLO8 live - was playing 200BB deep at 2-2 earlier, raised pot after a few limps with AA85 nut diamonds and got repotted by a guy out of position who had me covered.

How often am I getting freerolled by the other two aces with a better low, or at least up against the nut low and a hand with good equity vs. AA? I'm not sure what's standard here at 200BB; if I should be looking to bloat the pot pre or try and play a smaller pot in position.

check out the "book containment thread" in this forum

Thanks!

Not often. In a full ten player game, roughly one time in forty, I think.

• my math:
  AA22 1*6
  AA2X 1*4*42
  AA33 1*6
  AA3X no 2 1*4*38
  AA44 1*6
  AA4X no 2, no 3 1*4*34
  AA56 1*3*4
  AA57 1*3*4
  
  6+168+6+152+6+136+12+12=498 ways to make one of the fore listed hands. All of those are not necessarily better starting hands than (A5)A8 or (A8)A5, but they all have a better low before the flop. (The parentheses around cards means they're of the same suit).
  
  48*47*46*45/1/2/3/4=194580 possible ways to make any hand when Hero has (A5)A8 or (A8)A5.
  
  498/194580=0.00256 Probability of one opponent being dealt one of the tabulated hands. That's low enough to multiply by the number of opponents. In a full ten player game, roughly one time in forty.

I don't know. I think a lot. An Omaha-8 starting hand that contains a pair of aces is not nearly as good in Omaha-8 as a starting hand with a pair of aces in Texas hold 'em. That written, (A5)A8 and (A8)A5 are nice starting hands in Omaha-8. I'd certainly see the flop with either one of them.

I suspect opinions will differ, depending on playing style preferences. This newb's thread is mainly for non-controversial beginner type questions. Thus this thread is probably not a good place to post your question.

Buzz

Want to start playing live low limit FL O/8. Haven't played the game in 6-7 years, so remember very little.

Any good websites for beginner strategy as a refresher?

Is there a site with instructional videos for FL O/8 that's better (or more applicable to ultra loose live games) than the others out there?


Thanks

Start at the beginning of this thread and read your way through the thread. You'll find some information that may be useful and most of your questions are answered herein. Post specific questions if you don't understand something.

Buzz

Are pockets actually worth playing in PL?

I like playing the "big high roller 1$ game" lol on stars on the weekend because of my work schedule. I tend not to with the obvious exception. I play scoop hands mostly.. or AA rundowns (try only in heads up situations), nut broad way hands. For the most part, the field loves playing pockets... any pocket. I'll play 2346 with no suit (like it matters with a 6 high flush anyway ) over (Q6)(Q7) any day of the week. With all the wrap possibilities with 4 cards to work with, why settle for a 1 or 2 outer?? I can see playing them in a flo8 game since its cheap to get away without the board pairing or with no str/flush possible, easy call but PLO8, esh.

Pretty weak play after the bubble.. limp with A2xx, raise with AA2x, max bet with the nuts. Sometimes you'll see crazy sheet like going nuts with AAK7 with no possible flush. I never limp. After cashing I tend to min raise my hands because I know full well the only hand that will come over the top is AAxx. C/f on a whiff, go for stacks if I hammer it.

I watched some of the wcoop plo8 and very rarely did I see someone get involved with some random pocket hand. I know it's night and day when comparing the tourneys. But is it worth it in low buy ins? I'm gonna stick with my gut and say no.

On a side note, it's too bad stars got rid of the 5 card games. I did find it a little weird because the entry numbers were quite similar to the normal 4 card game. Sigh.....

Like anything else in poker, it's highly situational. Although I think there's value to inventing generic examples, your examples are mostly instructive in the info they're missing. If I say I can't answer your question without knowing stack size, position, or caliber of my opponents, then perhaps you'll learn that those things are more important than you thought when writing the post.

I have no idea what the '"big high roller 1$ game" lol' is. I'm not allowed to play on PokerStars. If I'm supposed to infer something about your opponents from this fact, you'd do better to spell it out.

You tend not to what, exactly? Tend not to play pocket pairs? I guess AA is what you mean by "the obvious exception," although I'm curious why you think it's obvious. You'll generally want to play AALL (ace-ace-low-low) all-in preflop and thin the field if you don't have some monster cards to go with your aces. I'm not sure I like AABB, especially if one of those big cards is a nine, all-in vs. a reasonable low hand. Heads up all-in (so, no implied odds, no outplaying your opponent and getting her to fold half), the ability to make any low is a great benefit vs. a high-only hand.

Here's something eye-opening I just discovered, though I kind of knew it intuitively:

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
AAT9	46.78%	201,282	359,792	289	0	0
8765	53.22%	239,919	239,919	289	323,583	0

Note that 65 here might as well be A2. If a low comes here, even bad low cards beat no low cards.

(Now I'm replying at a Buzz level of thoroughness. Maybe I'm channeling him.)

Playing to scoop is a sound strategy. QQxx can also scoop on Q75 - J - 7. If you can get in cheap against players who will pay you off at the right odds, playing QQxx in position might be OK.

I agree that opponents will overrate virtually all pairs, and drastically overrate anything TT or below, maybe JJ too. Big pairs multiway are pretty much only drawing hands.
A great deal depends on whether you're HU or multiway. HU I probably like the queens better; they'll win high much more often. Heads up, QQxx ds can make flushes or win unimproved. QQ76 ds can scoop by making a terrible low against a counterfeited low hand. However, in a big bet game, I certainly want to have position if I'm playing marginal hands HU for high-hand value.

Multiway, of course, being able to wallop the board occasionally is more important than being able to graze the board frequently.

Just telling us which of these two hands you prefer, without considering why you'd prefer one or the other, indicates to me that you're not considering enough factors when you play PL/NL O8.
This is exactly backward. In fixed-limit, your reward for flopping top set is small relative to the amount that you had to pay to see the flop. Also, in FL, the better flush draws are usually staying in, whereas in big-bet, your aggression may drive them out and make your weak flush draws more valuable.

Anyway, I'm no PL/NL expert by any means but I play QQ+, sometimes JJ or TT with reasonable sidecards, in position for a limp and deep effective stacks. (Obviously the blinds can't be extremely aggressive preflop, either.) I'm really looking to make set over set or set versus draws that can't fold.

If I don't have deep effective stacks, then it's much more like a limit game and I won't win the pot enough to justify the relatively high price to see the flop.

I'm eager to hear what better players than me think of QQ87r on the button, 100x effective stacks, vs moderately weak opponents. Then we can change the parameters and have more discussions.