Just had some guy tell me I need a $1500 bank roll to play $7 hyper HU NLO8 - this seems super excessive, though... 200+ buy ins? Really?

You always need more bankroll than you think. But without giving us your winrate (ROI), you're asking an ill-defined question.

For all I know maybe your ROI is .0000001% and 20k buy-ins isn't enough to bring risk of ruin below 1%. Maybe your ROI is -1% and ∞ buy-ins isn't enough.

Here's a good board-reading exercise that came up the other day.

Board on the river is A24-7-3

Hand 1: QQ65 (65 low)
Hand 2: A698 (live 6 low)

Who wins low?

Hand two is playing 6432A, hand one is playing 6543A. Should be pretty clear the moment you get used to starting with the highest cards down and looking at it as a number - 64321 is a lot less than 65431.

What is a significant enough sample of tournaments and SNGs to be able to have an idea of what my ROI is?

Its excessive if you can afford to reload. If you don't want to ever go broke you really should have 200+ buy ins. People really underestimate variance in hypers. its fairly common for even the best players to routinely have 50+ buy in downswings.

hand one is playing a2356

No.
Hand one uses the 32A on the board to play 6532A.

64321 is less than 65321 by one thousand.

I would not call this a question for the newb's thread, or even this forum.

There's quite a lot involved.
http://www.wikihow.com/Assess-Statistical-Significance

You might try the 2+2 Probability Forum for a better response.

Buzz

Well, that's the problem -- it's much much greater than you would think. (The human brain is really not wired to deal with cases where the standard deviation is so much higher than the mean.)

Probably a couple thousand games to know if you're really a winner, and many thousand more to start to estimate it.

Is there a room that has 0.25/.050c and 0.50/1$ FLO8 running a decent amount of the time?
I know pokerstars is usually the best but i can hardly find any tables running,maybe i am just playing the wrong time?

Hi guys, a newbie here. Just wanted to say hello and give my thanks to all the good people who provided and still provide intelligent info over here. It`s a pleasure to read it.

Hi RlyBadAtO8.

It has been two weeks and you haven't gotten a response in the newb's thread. It's possible that someone who would know the answer to your question does not read the newb's thread but might have responded if you had put your question somewhere else.

Your post either needs a thread of its own or could have been placed in the monthly miscellaneous thread. I suggest if you're still looking, you re-post in the August monthly miscellaneous thread. Maybe (or maybe not) you'll get a meaningful response there.

Buzz

Hi benderino. Thanks for your feedback and welcome to the forum.

Buzz

Hi guys(and girls),

I am new at this forum and with no limit omaha8, my question is how to learn this game? (cashgame, 6max)
I read 2 books, from Jeff Whang and Bill Boston, but its more concentrated on the limit/plo parts.

Thanks,
Xinax

Practice and post on these forums. There are many different ways to approach the game, dont be afraid to play whatever way is comfortable with you. Then report back here with Hand Histories etc.. and we will try and guide you in the right direction.

You should play tons of cash micro NLO8, and post the spots you find difficult here, as suggested above.

Hand selection is pretty much the same as in PLO8. Value-extraction/variance is the biggest difference between PL and No Limit omaha 8-or better. You'll learn by playing.

Go all-in with any AA.

Seriously, with the popularity of the game you would expect a NLO8 book to be written by someone in the near future.

Hi Xinax. Welcome to the forum.

I can tell you how I got started. I learned to play no-limit Texas Hold 'Em and fixed-limit Omaha-8 more or less independently of each other. And then when a no-limit Omaha-8 game got started in one of the casinos I visit, it seemed natural.

(In other words, before I ever played no-limit Omaha-8 in a casino, I had learned, and was a casino winner playing, both no-limit Texas hold 'em and fixed-limit Omaha-8).

Read the threads in this forum that are labeled with a spade (). They contain the posts that specifically pertain to no-limit Omaha-8. It will take you a while to figure out who you can trust, who knows the game well and gives good advice.

Good luck to you.

Buzz

Thanks for the fast help!
I played no limit holdem before, on that game i open raise 3bb+/- most of the time. I see a lot of players min raising with omaha8. Is this normal? I am not sure now how to play on omaha8 no limit, limp/minraise?
I read the fixed limit parts of the books, so maybe i need to read the plo8 parts too.
Again thanks for the assistance !

Xinax

I don't know what's "normal." I guess if you see it a lot, it's normal. But normal doesn't necessarily mean good or correct.

I think it depends on your opponents.

Good idea. Can't hurt.

It's worth noting that position is much more important in pot-limit and no-limit than in fixed-limit. Limp re-raising seems to occur more in no-limit than fixed-limit. At least that's my experience.

You're welcome. Post your questions in separate threads in the forum. There are many posters who know the game of no-limit Omaha-8 better than I do who may not read this newb's thread.

Buzz

In the book of Bill Boston there are hand ranks for the cards, i guess this is based on when you play fixed limit full ring?

Because for example aq23 double suited(hand rank 76 in the book) vs akj2(hand rank 149) double suited. But when i put them against each other in a calculator akj2 has more chance to win.

Sorry for the stupid question

Xinax

Bill Boston's books are seriously flawed.

For example, there are three possibilities for double suited AQ23.
(A2)(Q3) and (A3)(Q2) play about the same, but (AQ)(32) plays a bit differently. In my notation, borrowed from ProPokerTools, cards of the same suit are enclosed within the same parentheses.

There are actually 16,432 uniquely different Omaha-8 (and Omaha-high) hands. (A4)32 is a much better starting hand than A(432) and does not play the same, yet both are single suited. (A43)2 and (A432) are also single suited. See the problem? In case you don't, for one thing you don't end up making a flush with (A432) as often as with (A4)32.

But there's an even bigger problem. How any hand plays depends on the other players at the table. Mr. Boston used a Wilson simulator for his simulations. Wilson allows you to vary the play characteristics of the opponents at the table, and there is a cast of about three dozen characters with different playing characteristics. (Or you can choose a showdown mode where playing characteristics don't matter).

Evidently Mr. Boston selected a particular arrangement of Wilson characters. Perhaps he plays in the same game each day, with the same characters and perhaps he matched some of the three dozen or so Wilson characters with the opponents he regularly faces.

I also sometimes use a Wilson simulator for simulations. I don't know what group of Wilson characters Mr. Boston used because I never could find the exact array of Wilson characters he used for his series of (seriously flawed) simulations noted anywhere in any of his books. (I have three of his books). Without that information, his results are not reproducible.

When I ran a series of (thousands) of simulations using a Wilson simulator, I did not get the same results as Mr. Boston.

Obviously if one varies the playing characteristics of the opponents, the relative standing of the hands varies.

The genius behind Pro Poker Tools simulations (Bachfan, who sometimes posts in this forum) uses a better, more objective system to rate starting hands than Bill Boston used.

Here's a link to the site to run your simulations:
http://www.propokertools.com/simulations?g=o8

Here's a link to a ten-handed ordering of starting hands:
http://www.propokertools.com/simulator/o8ordering.txt


Different numbers of opponents at the table produce a different ordering of starting hands.

There's a whole lot more, but that should get you started.

I don't like to knock books but Bill Boston's books are seriously flawed.

Buzz

Yes i understand, in the book they don't say like which are the suited ones.

Yes true, i thought he wrote in the book i read that he tried to make the ranks based on a average tight player or something..

Thanks for helping and the links, btw the 2nd link is not working for me (are you sure about the link?).

Thx,
Xinax

You're welcome.

I guess that series of listings is no longer available. Try this one:

http://www.propokertools.com/simulator/o8ordering.txt

I'll edit my previous post. Thanks.

Buzz

I'm thinking of investing a small amount in a training/video site. Would you please let me know which podcast/video/training site would be the best for live O8?

Also, does anyone know of other free podcasts involving O8 other than:
PokerVT
Tournament Poker Edge
Cash Plays
Deuce Plays
or Thinking Poker Podcast??

Rookie question....

You have A28K, and the board is 2 3 7 J 6......Does the 2 on the flop cancel out the 2 in your hand?