expectations are very important.

to play poker well is to make mostly correct decisions, and one way to evaluate if a decision is correct is to determine whether that decision has a positive expectation, generally expressed on these forums as +EV.
if you are unfamiliar with this concept i would recommend learning about it, which can be done reading a good holdem book.

however the expectation i'm sharing my opinion with you about is expecting "success" and "beating the micro tables".

Rake plays a large to very large role in microstakes split/pot poker online.

-rake is paid by the winner
-rake is a percentage of the pot

100% pot - x% rank - contribution to pot= profit(winnings)

with 0 rake if you are award 100% of the pot if you contribute 45% to the pot(the later streets are played primarily heads-up(hu)) then you profit 55%

with 10% rake if you are award 100% of the pot if you contribute 45% to the pot(the later streets are played primarily heads-up(hu)) then you profit 45%

when the pot is split and consequently you are awarded 50% of the pot rather then 100% your profit is 0.
(100%-10%)*.5 -45%=0

consider the pot limit structure of betting and see this is not an unusual scenerio, an example: 4 people limp to see a flop (4bb-4.5bb pot), 3 people continue to the turn for a 3/4 pot bet(3*3+4.5=13.5bb pot), 1 fold on the turn and its hu for 2 streets of pot betting, (13.5*3=40.5bb, 40.5*3=121.5bb). the final pot @ showdown is 121.5bb, contribution to the pot by 1 of the 2 'winners' is (40.5+13.5+3+1=58bb) 58/121.5=47.75%

unless the rake was capped such that rake was not 'charged' for the entire pot, then if the rake was 10% someone seeing showdown is losing money.
(121.5 - 12.1(10%))*.5 - 58= -3.3bb
the 'dead$' that went into the pot, that would be split by 'the winners' is consumed by the rake. In fact, in the example 'the winners' lose money because the rake exceeds the dead$.

At lower stakes it takes bigger pots to achieve the rake cap. As the pot size represents contributions by the later streets moreso then the earlier streets as a consequence of the pot limit betting structure, the earlier streets where dead$ is contributed often don't provide enough to cover the rake. Hence you lose $ splitting the pot at the microstakes.

at$1/$2 when the rake is capped @$3 and the rake is 5% it requires a $60 pot (30bb pot) to achieve the cap

at .25/.5 when the rake is capped @$3 and the rake is 5% it requires a $60 pot (120bb pot) to achieve the cap

at .02/.4 when the rake is capped @$2 and the rake is 5% it requires a $40 pot (1000bb pot) to achieve the cap

(the rake% and caps I've made up as examples)



the point:
beating the microstakes may not be the correct expectation.
playing microstakes rather then higher stakes to learn and get familiar with the game may be the right decision.
measure your success by your progress and not by your profit

Ahh I just posted a thread but I think posting in here is better..

I have a MTT hand I think I misplayed:

PokerStars - $20+$2|600/1200 PL Hi/Lo - Omaha Hi/Lo - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

SB: 43,403 (VPIP: 20.75, PFR: 15.09, 3Bet Preflop: 4.35, Hands: 53)
BB: 43,059 (VPIP: 8.33, PFR: 4.17, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 48)
UTG: 18,373 (VPIP: 22.68, PFR: 17.98, 3Bet Preflop: 9.38, Hands: 100)
Hero (UTG+1): 57,344
MP: 55,972 (VPIP: 36.29, PFR: 15.32, 3Bet Preflop: 1.89, Hands: 125)
MP+1: 14,169 (VPIP: 27.16, PFR: 19.75, 3Bet Preflop: 7.89, Hands: 84)
CO: 22,810 (VPIP: 18.04, PFR: 4.11, 3Bet Preflop: 2.46, Hands: 321)
BTN: 44,912 (VPIP: 10.53, PFR: 2.63, 3Bet Preflop: 4.55, Hands: 38)

SB posts SB 600, BB posts BB 1,200

Pre Flop: (pot: 1,800) Hero has 7 Q 2 A

UTG raises to 3,600, Hero calls 3,600, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold

Is this a fold? I feel like it is.

I ended up calling because there were a couple big fish behind.. But were so far behind villains range and its too shallow to outplay him, and thats a more relevant factor, right?

Since you posted your hand history in this thread, I'll leave it here and give you a response, but since I think this hand history really belongs in its own thread, if anyone disagrees with me, I'll move it, along with discussion about it, into its own thread.

I would want to play this starting hand. It's not ideal, and you're out of position, but for me it's a playable starting hand. In my opinion, it's also a pulling hand. By "pulling," I mean you want to pull as many of your opponents into the pot as possible... you don't want to push anyone out of the pot. I think the best way to "pull" with this hand is limp. Therefore I'd call the raise.

Unfortunately, everybody behind you folds.

Why do you think you're far behind Villain's range? (I don't think you are).

And why do you think it's too shallow to outplay him? Once everyone else folds, you have position on your opponent, plus a very decent (albeit not ideal) starting hand. You cover him (have more chips than him) and he has only put about 10% of his chips in the pot. I think you have a clear call.

Buzz

This hand has reasonable nut nut potential. It's not amazing, but it's definitely playable. PPT puts it in the top 4-5% of hands.

FWIW, I'd be pretty happy 3b this hand and trying to knock out short stack, given his stats. I know its only 100 hands but he is playing a very solid TAG tournament style as opposed to the rest of the table. I have a feeling his range is probably a bit wider given he's about to go into blinds.

That said, flatting and getting others involved isn't bad at all

Sorry if this is in the wrong subforum-

I have a rake oriented question. On a Euro site I am playing on, for .10/.20 FLO8, I've been playing a lot of heads-up/short handed. In heads-up pots, I notice that PT4 shows I am losing 0.03-0.05 every time I chop a pot. As soon as I saw that number I quit, and wanted to confirm that this rake is obscene or that I am being paranoid.

On that note, what is the minimum stake level to play FLO8 heads-up/short-handed cash game given that rake? I have been mostly playing ring which seems to have okay rake and learning a lot/doing pretty well, also wanted to say thanks to the forum people here for posting so many HHs and advice, helps a lot and am sincerely thankful.

You're playing 10¢/20¢ limit poker and if you split, I presume you pay half of the rake. If you're paying half the rake, then the rake must be 6¢ to 10¢. (That's how I read it). In other words, the rake is one small bet or less.

Whether that's "obscene" or not is a matter of opinion. (It does seem high to me for an automated heads-up game).

I don't know. Playing heads-up, I think a rake of one small bet is probably too stiff for anyone to beat over the long haul. (Full game, or even six-max, I think you can beat a rake of one small bet if you're enough better than your opponents).

Buzz

I'm new to PLO8 and I was wondering if the game is beatable without rakeback. I play on Bovada and I was curious.

In the abstract or a specific stakes on that specific site at a certain time of day (or with a certain lineup or player pool)?

biggest problem is preflop, what hands are good. I think im getting better at this. seems like at miucro stakes, and A2 or even A3 hand is worthy to see a flop.

my biggest problem is assessing hand strength on flop and knowing when to go on and when to fold

Look at post #51 in this thread.

You're not alone. There's quite a lot to it because there are different general types of flops. Are you aware there's a current series of articles in the 2+2 on-line magazine regarding different types of flops? It's not exactly newb material, but you might get some ideas there.

http://www.twoplustwo.com/magazine/i...a-8-Better.php

Buzz

Oh, very cool! I didn't know that this was your series of articles.

Can we give you feedback? Would that be most appropriate in a separate thread on this forum, on the magazine forum, via PM, or some other way?

Sure. I'd appreciate that, even if you disagree with me.

Any of those are fine. Probably a thread on this forum (Omaha-8 forum) or a PM works best.

I plan to post the earlier articles in the current series in a separate thread on this forum. I need to first format them for this forum. (The formatting is a little different for the magazine and then is made better by Kiera). And there were a couple of glitches that hopefully I'll catch this time around. I'll get those earlier articles cleaned up, reformatted and posted sometime this month, probably within the next week or two.

Buzz
Frank Jerome

Thanks Buzz,

other than articles have you made, are there any books/writings or anything of that sort that has been typed or written by you out there that are able to be read?

Hwang's LO8 chapter is good, especially for its examples. Tenner and Krieger have a bit on flop play, but it's very ABC. Frankly I've always thought Zee was profoundly overrated (although I appreciated it a bit more with experience); I don't think a new player could get any useful info on the flop other than "Keep grinding the nuts."

Buzz's series is a great start at moving up the discussion. I'd really like to see discussions of, "When do I cbet, when do I plan to check/call, and when do I give up?" Obviously it depends on a million variables, but let's discuss what they are. Buzz does that to an extent in his articles, which is fabulous.

Hiya

New to omaha hi-lo so here is my question....

Do low pairs cancel themselves out for the low hand?

E.g. If I have A 2 in my hand and 2 5 6 is out on the board, have I got low hand, or is my 2 discounted?

Same goes for a low pair in your hand (along with any other low card); can it only be used towards the high, or still be considered for the low?

Your help much appreciated!

Chris.

Your deuce is "counterfeited." You don't have a low yet. If a three, four, seven or eight appears on the board, you'll have a low with a "live ace."

A two card hand always has six two-card combinations. If, for example, your hand is
A,K,2,2 your six two card combinations are
A,K
A,2
A,2
K,2
K,2
2,2

You can use any of the six two card combinations to make a high hand and you can use either the
A,2 or the
A,2
to make a low hand.

You can use different (or the same) combinations to make low or high.

The two low combinations, each with an ace and a deuce, amount to the same thing.

Think of your hand as a series of two-card combinations. And think of the board as a series of three-card combinations. You need to use one of the two-card combinations in your hand and one of the three-card combinations on the board to make a five card Omaha-8 hand.

It may be a little confusing at first, but you'll catch on.

Welcome to the forum.

Buzz

Returning to poker after a long time away and dabbling in plo8 rather than NLHE... can anyone post some basic common issues regarding the differences in strategy between nlhe and plo8.

I did a brief search for such information here but ended up reading about 2-3 wells. oops.

Also, have been reading http://www.twoplustwo.com/magazine/i...a-8-Better.php on the basis of the above reference, and it starts at Part 10... is there a link to all the parts in one place, i.e parts 1-9?

and now off to post #51 with me as per above discussion.

Thanks guys.

Your pair can be used for high, but can't use the pair as a low must contain no pairs by definition. For example

Say you have AA9T

Flop:

AT3.

You may use your AA for top set.

You do NOT have a low and never will with this hand.

Another example:

Say you have AA2T (very nice hand)

Flop:

A67.

You do not have a low yet, but you have a weak low draw. Currently the best you can do is (A2) from the hand and (67) from the board. You will make a low with 3, 4, 5, or 8, but since you paired the A, it will be easy to beat.

Turn: A67 4.

Your low is (A2) (764). Anyone with 23, 24, 25, 34, or 35 will beat you with their 6 low (yours is 7 low). You will still beat 82, 83, 84, 85, an 8 low.

Lows go from worst down so 76543 beats 8432A

Hope this wasn't too confusing

* Hands are bigger. Hands like top pair and bottom 2 are either crushed or very vulnerable.

* It's less of a preflop game - AAxx is still usually favored but the equities run closer.

* Play hands that can go both ways. This usually includes an A2 or A3 and some connectivity and suitedness. Medium strength flushes run into nut flushes way more often than in hold 'em.

* A draw can be treated as a made hand if it's big enough, i.e. you have huge equity over any hand. For example if you have A256 and the flop is K34. You have a full wrap, nut lo draw, say nut flush draw with it - that's way better than someone holding a set with no low draw. Even something as small as nut low draw, nut flush draw, and some backdoor potential is very good.

Good luck!

Edit: Don't play big pairs cause they look pretty - sets are pretty vulnerable in this game (often get freerolled)

Everything said so far looks solid, and especially learn to play draws fast if you don't already.

Also, learn to use the nuts one direction (usually low) to put pressure on weak hands the other direction. Then balance it by value betting really thin, eg nut low + any pair heads up.

I missed if you're talking about PL/NL but my point about pressure is more true there, obv. Can still be true in limit.

In limit, quartering is no big deal and you shouldn't fear it until you get raised. In pl/nl it's a little worse but still learn to value bet thin; often you'll get the 3/4

nut low+pair HU in LO8 is a big hand. really thin? come on...

Cheers for the advice guys. Brought the definition of tight-noob to a whole new level yesterday, made about $15 in cash and took it to the $5 rebuy, 172 runners, final tabled and then had a hold'em-esque melt down... still, $100 profit on day one is a big start!

(definitely got lucky along the way!! )

Would definitely have helped if I had any knowledge of pushing ranges as stacks got shorter. Found myself being blinded into oblivion and chose 1 or 2 bad spots toward the end. Very content with first run at cash - now I need to find out if my Holdem Manager license from 4-5 years ago still works!

Pretty much "any four plausible cards, especially with a low, in decent position". Why? Because near the bubble most people play like you did, i.e. ....

IME most O8 tourneys, be they limit or big bet, play the same way.

• It starts like a really loose cash game.
• Then all the crazy loose people bust out and mostly decent players are left.
• Then the remaining players play weak-tight trying to sneak into the money.

It would help to understand a bit of tournament theory. (Read the MTT forum FAQs -- even though that forum is about NLHE, many important concepts of tournament equity are similar here.) Playing to sneak into the money is almost always wrong in a standard-payout MTT.

So you're not going to emulate them; you're going to exploit them. Steal blinds mercilessly. (Attack limps, too, unless you think you're being trapped.) Keep your stack at a point where it's threatening. Steal once or twice an orbit until they show a sign of playing back without a premium hand.

Consider how to defend your BB. You should know that any unpaired hand with a low is not a huge underdog to any reasonable range heads up in O8, so you're going to call off your stack in the BB pretty loosely when you're getting appropriate odds. You're not trying to fold to the money, remember?

And then consider that the risk of your steals getting called is really the flip side of that equation. You pot on the button with 10 big blinds and K 7 5 2. The SB folds, and you get repotted all in by a 5% range in the BB. But you still have 36% of the equity! This is much better than running into a 5% range with Kh5h in hold'em.

Regarding "bad spots at the end" -- if you run into a monster or a suckout, just remember that tourneys are really really high variance. But keep your stack healthy so that you have plenty of fold equity, and if the button or blinds wakes up with a premium hand that scoops, just keep doing the same thing next tournament.

Keep playing aggressively once the time is right and you'll do well in the long run.

You, Sir, get a round of applause! Thanks for that...

Reasonably well grounded in NLHE MTT theory, but wasn't sure of decent pushing ranges... so like your example of k752 on button, or sb, was a default fold for me. Two players at the FT, were alot more active and wore hoovering up small pots every where - I'll work on this for sure.

Thanks.