Yes. You can.

But should you two and three bet your premiums? And if so, when?

I think the answer is variable depending on various factors, including how you play other hands and how your opponents react to your raises.

Do some experts ever two and three bet premium starting hands? Of course.

Do some experts ever two and three bet non-premium starting hands? Yes.

Do some experts ever not two and three bet premium or non-premium starting hands? Yes.

But I don't think experts always agree on when to (and when not to) two and three bet starting hands.

My opinion is you should sometimes raise and sometimes call, depending.

I myself treat A2** and A3** hands somewhat differently. And in either case I like (but don't generally require) some counterfeit protection. "Counterfeit protection" to me generally means another wheel rank.

I don't have experience playing in micro stakes games. In order to be optimally successful you always should adapt to your opponents, but when you're playing in micro stakes games, if you're primarily playing there to learn the game so as to "move up," I think you want to practice playing how you'd need to play at the higher level. Playing this way, I think you will generally still be successful, but probably not optimally so for the micro level.

Your A2** hand goes way down in value if an opponent also has an A2** hand. It's hard to say in my games what pre-flop multiple bets mean without knowing the player making the raises. For some the raise defines the range of their hand. For others that's not true. (For me it's not true). If you virtually know an opponent also has A2**, then (depending on your other two cards) seriously consider folding, depending on the situation.

In my humble opinion it's too nitty for anyone but a beginner.

A45*, A34* and A35* are all in my standard playing range. That is, I'm generally going to see the flop with all of those starting hands.

Buzz

thanks Buzz. Im gonna start classifying who the real tight players are and who the loose gooses are at my tables. I can better gauge which hands to play against who

You're very welcome.

Good idea to distinguish between who is tight and who is loose so as to better gauge which hands to play against whom.

Buzz

Don;t wanna jinx myself. but I definitely have improved over the past week in this game. I am starting to get a slightly better grip on pre flop and flop play. trying to play hands that scoop. Still nowhhere even close to where I want to be. but I am making some improvements. inch by inch.


thanks to all. Hope you guys arent getting tired of me because you can expect i ll be ticking around : D

Hello guys,

I'm kinda new to omaha and would like to get to know plo8 and limit omaha 8. I have Pot Limit Omaha Poker by Jeff Hwang which I think gave me already a basic understanding. I also got a deucescracked subscription.

Anyone got any must watch series on deucescracked and some good articles on plo8/lo8 online?

thanks !

In a Nutshell is their intro and really their only plo8 series, i think. There is a ton of great lo8 stuff from danzasmack, some of it quite advanced. i think your best lo8 intro videos are from some of the older Joe Tall mixed game series. i wanna say Saddle Up, but it might be the one before that.

Search the DC forums for video guides; i don't think there is one for o8 but i could be wrong. If there's isn't one, people on the DC forums are quite helpful.

from a donk to a stud.

Yep! Thanks

[converted_hand][hand_history]Poker Stars, $0.25/$0.50 Limit Omaha H/L Cash, 5 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #13487452

Preflop: Hero is CO with K A Q T
Hero posts BB OOP, MP calls, Hero checks, BTN raises, SB calls, BB calls, MP calls, Hero calls

Flop: (10 SB) 9 7 J (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP checks, Hero bets, BTN calls, SB calls, 2 folds

Turn: (6.5 BB) K (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, BTN calls, SB calls

River: (9.5 BB) J (3 players)
SB bets, Hero ?

Do I fold on the river, or is the pot too big?

In my opinion Hero should call, although it's scary having BTN yet to act. If BTN raises and SB just calls, I'd call the raise too.

SB may not have a full house and may simply be betting trip jacks or something else. A not uncommon tactic by some opponents is to bet scare cards on the river regardless of whether the scare card helped them. (Some of the time the scare card has helped them and some of the time it has not).

If anyone disagrees with me, I'll move all posts related to your post into a separate thread.

Buzz

damned if you call, damned if you fold. whatever you do, I don't blame you for doing it, just don't raise...

more interesting IMO is whether you should bet if SB checks. I personally think "yes", but you should generally be willing to bet/fold, which doesn't suit everybody...

either way, it's such an ugly spot, I would move it...

Against an unknown getting 10.5:1 it's not too bad to make a crying call. But honestly, I don't think an unknown is really bluffing (or poorly vbetting) much more than the 9% you need to make this a call. Note that the third player is partially protecting the pot.

I've thought about keeping stats on all my roughly 10:1 crying calls to see if they're really profitable. I think I call these way too much.

Obviously if your opponent is savvy and knows you'll fold a straight getting 10:1 then the everything changes.

I BF this. Just too much value from trips, AA, AK (possibly with busted draws), etc.

Savvy opponents could know that and bluff raise mercilessly (now they're getting 5.25 on a bluff raise) but very few are thinking on this level. Occasionally i talk myself into calling a raise here and it's virtually always just spew except against very specific opponents.

Hello,

My friends who I play homegames with have suggested dedicating the next few weeks to trying out new games, and the first night is going to be entirely PLO8 (off topic but the next game is NL 2-7, which is just awesome). We usually play NL holdem and occasionally PLO high. AFAIK, none of them have much experience playing PLO8 besides the usual donking around at microstakes that most poker players will do when 'learning' a new game. So, I come to you in the hopes of learning something new. I know very little but have started to read the 'beginners thread'.

The format of our game will be a sit n go, starting with 100BBs with progressively rising blinds. The buy in is only $10, so it's not a big deal that I'm not great at the game.

I'm interested in some very basic tips for playing, so far the one thing I get is to almost never play low only hands, and very rarely play high only hands, but other than that I completely suck.

So, any tips for a noob like me?

I don't think not playing low hands and not playing high hands is a good way for you to think about the game of Omaha-8. Tending to avoid hands with middle cards is not bad very general advice.

I suggest you get a good book and read it. Then as you play the game, come to this forum to ask more specific questions.

Here's a link to our book containment thread.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/44...thread-737104/

Good luck.

Buzz

There's not much. I think DC is slightly better than CR. Less content, but a bit higher quality and newer.

I had been doing really well at the local $2-$6 spread limit (w/$5-$10 spread kill pot for a scoop of $60>). Out of my previous measly 8 sessions, I have won on 6 and was up 63bb.

However, on my 9th session, I got stuck 23bb in 3 hours. What I can't get my head around is that I played very few hands at all and only took 2 half pots the entire time. When I did play a hand it was A246 rainbow or A235 rainbow (best two hands I saw in my session) type hand. Of course the flop for those type of hands was usually KQ9 or QJ8 and I'd have a bet or a bet/raise in front of me so I insta-mucked. My memory of the session is blurry as to where the $$$ went, but I'm guessing I called with marginal hands and hoped they'd improve, which they obviously didn't. I do remember thinking that I had mucked the winning low a couple of times, but it was never the nut low that I mucked, always 2nd, 3rd, or even 4th (backdoor low appeared). I thought the folds were right at the time so I guess that just happens sometimes. When I would get the rare suited A, it was with medium cards. Most of my A2 or A3 hands were unsuited and had no low protection -- naturally the flops came with an A, 2, or 3 on the flop and I was instantly counterfeited.

I assume you can run cold like this every so often and that's just the variance in poker, right?

Since I want to improve, how do I get better at tracking what I'm playing and what I'm mucking? I confess that memorizing isn't a strength of mine. Perhaps writing things down is a good idea then. Is it ok to take a little notebook and write my hands down after each hand has either been mucked our played out?

I don't *need* the money, but I am competitive and like to win when I play. The table didn't have any sharks around, so I don't feel I was outplayed. Mostly limpers (10 seats at table) wanting to see a flop. A couple of people will raise pre, but they'll only do that with AA2x suited or AA3x suited. Some even make it $8 to go with a lone A2xx with the A suited. I never raised in 3 hours as I never had a decent raising hand in my opinion.

Thanks in advance.

Right.

Excellent question.

I have used a small tape recorder at times, one that is voice activated. You leave the table, but not for long, and talk into the recorder. Tell the recorder what your cards were and what happened. Then later you can pay the tape recorder and keyboard the hand history and notes about opponents.

It's OK, but looks awkward. I'd rather not have my opponents realize what I'm doing. I have occasionally gone into a rest room stall to write down stuff I wanted to remember. But that can be awkward if you do it much.

Me too.

Sounds like you just had a bad session. It happens. I think it's important to not let a bad session last too long. I don't play my best game if I start feeling glum because I can't catch decent cards or because I get decent cards but then fizzle on the river. Losing can be discouraging and getting discouraged adversely affects my game.

When I feel discouraged I have the self discipline to stop playing, at least for a while, if not for the rest of the day. I at least take a walk... and that works well for me.

Maybe someone else will share what works well for him/her.

Streaks of bad luck happen to us all.

Buzz

I just started playing some Pot Limit Hi Low and I was wondering about calling 3-bets. Roughly what % is a normal fold to 3-bet for 6-max and HU respectively? I know this will vary widely based on position and opponent, but I'm just trying to get a grasp of what range good regs are folding.

It's not a lot, and like you mentioned, its going to be dependent on their ranges and how widely you're opening. For 6max, I'd say the average for calling a 3-bet is somewhere between 70 and 80%. Maybe even a touch higher. For a lot of guys with low 3-bet %'s, you know they have AAxx and a lot of them will stack off light post. Call, hit, profit.

I have no experience with HU, but I've got to think people are even less likely to fold to a 3-bet. Can't conjecture as to percentages, but I think the increased frequency of getting 3-bet is why a standard open OTB is a minraise (afaik). It minimizes the impact of getting 3-bet.

Just a line check, completely and utterly new at this game, is this line decent or horrible, why?

My thoughts are I have the nut low draw and I want to put pressure to get fold equity, because I prefer him folding out his equity so I can scoop w/o showdown rather. And on the turn there's nothing to do.
How's my thinking?

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
Hi-Lo Omaha $0.50(BB) Boss
BB ($154)
($62.74)
UTG ($41.14)
UTG+1 ($27.44)
Hero ($55.50)

BB posts (SB) $0.25

Dealt to Hero J A 3 K

fold, UTG+1 raises to $1, Hero raises to $3.75, BB calls $3.50, fold, UTG+1 calls $2.75

FLOP ($11.75) 5 6 2

BB checks, UTG+1 bets $0.50, Hero raises to $10.06, BB folds, UTG+1 calls $9.56

TURN ($31.87) 5 6 2 Q

UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $23.90, UTG+1 calls $13.63 (AI)

RIVER ($59.13) 5 6 2 Q 7

Four handed pot-limit, you flop the nut low and back-door second nut high. Looks like a winner to me. What's the problem?

Exactly how to play almost any hand depends on your opponents and how they'll react to whatever you do.

Looks very aggressive to me. Sometimes when you're too aggressive, you lose your customers, but it doesn't look like that happened to you here, and thus the way you played seems fine to me.

If we get different opinions, I'll move this into its own thread. This newb's thread is for simple questions with non-controversial answers.

Buzz

All right, sounds good. No problem, I'm just very new to the game and really feel lost in a lot of spots, don't really know what I'm doing or why I'm doing it yet, probably gonna be a regular here in this part on the forums with a lot of stupid questions.

Line forms behind me. I've asked a few already.

Sounds good to me!

Btw is there any PLO8 skypegroup around to join?

Or actually just anyone want to talk with a newb on skype about PLO8? Discuss hands and the like. If so PM me with your skype! I play at the nano stakes.