Getting value PF >>>>> worrying about them minimizing their postflop mistakes because of potsize. Them calling correctly in a bigger pot is better than them folding correctly in a smaller pot.

Sounds like a juicy game.

Very astute observation! Because the pot size is bigger, everybody is getting more favorable odds to call a fixed-limit bet. Yes, that's true.

But note:
• Hands that are the best on the river are the ones that win.
• Hands that have the best chance of winning on the river are the best hands on the turn.
• Hands that have the best chance of being best on the turn are the best hands after the flop.
• Hands that have the best chance of being best after the flop are the best starting hands.

In other words, if your starting hand is better than your opponent(s), then you have the best chance of being a winner on the river.

Along the way, things often change. You can have the best hand before the flop and then the worst hand after the flop. Or you can have the best hand after the flop and the worse hand after the turn. Or you can have the best hand after the turn and the worse hand after the river. In other words, just because you have the best starting hand or the best hand somewhere along the way, in general there's no guarantee you'll win.

However, although there's no guarantee, the best hand at the start does have the best chance of being the best hand on the river. (Otherwise it wouldn't be the best hand at the start).

This may be somewhat confusing and perhaps that's because of the words I'm using to express myself. If one starting hand is T994 and another is AK32, the better hand is not T994, even though if the game were stopped with no cards dealt to the board, the pair of nines would beat AK. Rather, the AK32 hand is better than the T992 hand, because we know there will be five board cards added to both hands and we know (or can simulate to show) the five board cards, when combined with two of the cards from AK32 will usually make a better hand than the same five board cards when added to T992. Here's the simulation:

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

1,086,008 trials (Exhaustive)

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
AsKh3d2c	60.95%	512,774	512,774	0	586,504	0
Ts9h9d4c	39.05%	275,018	573,234	0	0	0

(Interestingly, T994 does win more for high than AK32, but it's greatly inferior in scooping and T994 can't make a low).

In rankings, AK32 is vastly superior to T994, as shown below:
Omaha Hi/Lo Hand Ranking (ProPokerTools)
Rankings for AsKh3d2c
Ranking Description Average Best Worst
10H 10-handed iterative (default) 4.0 4.0 4.0
3H 3-handed iterative 6.0 6.0 6.0
6H 6-handed iterative 4.0 4.0 4.0
VR vs. random hand 10.0 10.0 10.0

Rankings for Ts9h9d4c
Ranking Description Average Best Worst
10H 10-handed iterative (default) 97.0 97.0 97.0
3H 3-handed iterative 98.0 98.0 98.0
6H 6-handed iterative 98.0 98.0 98.0
VR vs. random hand 97.0 97.0 97.0

Interestingly, although AK32 is vastly superior to T994 in terms of hand rankings, it's only about a 60:40 heads-up favorite. That's typical for Omaha-8 and I think much different from Texas hold 'em.

At any rate, some Omaha-8 starting hands are better than others because they win more. When you play fewer and better starting hands than your opponents, other things being equal, then you should be favored to win.

Bottom line: Even though you still have to out-play your opponents after the flop, and it's more difficult to do that with more money in the pot, under the circumstances you have described, it seems proper for you to raise before the flop with every hand.

(I have to add that those circumstances are hard for me to believe but if you say so...)

Buzz

Hi names D I just got into omaha and hi lo this year my holdem game was picking up before black friday, but now i cannot afford 1/2 live so i stumbled into hi lo studied some of jeff hwangs work now I find it more fun than I ever found holdem, but the only regular omaha game offered in my area is a 4-8limit hi lo, the same rotating regs of about 15 people they play the Old man style tight and knitty A-2 style, I gets very annoying playing 6 out of nine knitts,

So i guess I just want some advice on how to adjust to their never bending style it cant be impossible since old timers hate change and have been playing the same for years

Depending on rake, it may not be beatable. I suppose you'd be best served playing laggy/aggro and getting them to fold their non-nut hands, but it's easy to spew that way, especially for someone new to the game.

I'd probably play nitty too at first and look for spots to get aggressive with nut high and non-nut lows in multiway pots. Play solid and gradually open up your game as you get more familiar with the nuances.

I do know what you mean. I think of games such as the one you have described as "rock gardens" and I prefer to avoid them although I guess I'm an "old timer" myself.

But adjust from what? Doesn't sound like you've played much live Omaha-8. Omaha-8 is generally played quite differently than Texas hold 'em, whether you play in a rock garden or at an action table.

When you switch from Texas hold 'em to Omaha-8, you still have to play poker, but some of the tactics you might have found successful in playing Texas hold 'em may not work as well playing Omaha-8. (At least, for what it's worth, that's my experience).

You seem to have stereotyped the players in this game as "old timers" who "hate change," and while that has a ring of truth to it, stereotyping opponents misses accounting for individual differences. I imagine there are still some winners and also some losers among the group of 15 or so regulars.

For one thing the regulars in the game you have described are each probably more familiar with how the others play than I am (or you are). To distinguish between them, I (or you) have to study each of them individually. In a full ten player game you spend 11.1% of your time studying each of your nine opponents. Meanwhile, they're each spending probably 88.8% of their time studying you. Even if we're smarter than they are, we're giving away a big edge just by having our attention spread. And if some of them are buddies, they may help each other in subtle ways against us.

Perhaps some of these old timers have made the successful adjustment to Omaha-8. Perhaps some of them have found a formula that works well for them. (They can't all be losers).

Perhaps you first have to recognize that they're not really all the same.

To be long term successful, you have to learn what works for you against these players as individuals. You have to get to know how your opponents individually play better than they know you. You have to get to know them, not personally, but as poker opponents.

If you play in this "rock garden" for a while, even if you're the youngest in the game you'll gradually have less and less attention focused on you. And if you're observant, you'll gradually learn what works against individual "old timers."

If anyone is beating the rake in this game and if you're really a good Omaha-8 poker player, you should be able to beat the rake too.

Seems like you feel irritation with your opponents in this game.

I'm fortunate in that I'm very tolerant, genuinely like people, and am not easily irritated. However, it does occasionally happen that someone irritates me. When it happens at a casino card table, I leave the table. In other words, I don't play at tables where I'm irritated with someone else seated at the table. Staying with someone who irritates me puts me on tilt - and tilt is something for me to avoid. I don't play my best game when I'm on tilt. I don't think anyone does. I advise you, if you're annoyed by your opponents, to find another table where you're not annoyed.

Buzz

• Nearly any A2 -- something like A297r isn't that far ahead of the field, so I might limp a really bad A2 now that i run the equities. A2Q7r is good enough to raise in this kind of game, as is A297
• Quality A3: As3, A34, A3BB (2 Broadways), perhaps A3K
• Maybe a few other hands like As45
• Quality AA - double suited, AABB, AsAW
• If your "no matter what" is a bit of an exaggeration, i'd raise stuff like KK32 or KKA4 that really wants to limit the field.

I'm usually limping high-only hands except aces and drawing hands like 2345, because i figure they play better with greater implied odds. However, the more i look at in PPT, the more i think they have a significant equity advantage against a large field of players cold calling with crap.

Exactly. SSHE (a limit HE book) makes this point well -- you force big mistakes pre, so you're not too worried about correct calldowns post. Besides, a big field consumes each other's outs (e.g. three people on the same flush draw -- they don't all have nine outs against you), so the limper with the worst hand is taking much the worst of it.

IME people on 2+2 are very eager to declare games unbeatable. It might not be beatable for a significant win, though. I would imagine if you can really rob them blind without them adjusting, it would still be beatable.

How nitty is nitty? Are you seeing most hands heads up and 3-handed, or like 5-handed?

Yeah, i agree with this. Also nut low and non-nut high.

As you improve, this game could be a good place to practice advanced limit concepts like knocking opponents out when you have a marginal two way hand. That's not for beginners, though. If you play a solid TAG game and break even for a while, you're doing well.

Thanks, I haven't considered these factors yet but me being irritated affects my game more than i realize,(especially viewing these regulars as a group) plus hand volume is another issue I guess my holdem brain is use to making the same standard adjustments vs LAG and TAG type players , Ill work on my game online before the casinos(Do you feel the $500 is enough of a BR for $50PLO8?- i just dont want to play lower due to the extremely loose play) Could you offer me any device on where to look for coaching for O/8(strategies mostly)

You're welcome.

Online is a different game, in my opinion, than brick and mortar. At least one other person who posts here evidently disagrees with me about that. Most who post on this forum feel on-line play is tougher than casino play at the same stakes.

But even if you have a well honed on-line game, I don't think you'll get rich or much enjoy playing in the brick and mortar rock garden you've described. That's just my honest opinion. I'd look for another game if I were you.

I don't know whether or not $500 is enough of a bankroll for $50PLO8. Someone else can, and hopefully will, answer bankroll questions better than I can.

There are some posters to this forum who also coach. We don't allow them to advertise here, but I don't see anything wrong with you asking here, and then anyone who's interested can send you a personal message.

In addition, there's a special 2+2 coaching section that contains five forums about coaching. You might try to find a coach in one of those forums.
• Coaching Advice
• Cash Games Poker Coaches
• Tournament / SNG Poker Coaches
• CardRunners
• PokerStrategy.com

Or read the posts in this forum and if you find someone who offers what seems like good advice to you, you can send that person a personal message asking if he/she would be interested in coaching and working out the financial details.

I don't want the responsibility I'd feel coaching. Thus I'm not interested in coaching.

Neither do I want the responsibility of recommending others to coach. I think there are several people who post here who would make excellent coaches and who might be interested. But you have to figure out for yourself who they are.

In other words, I don't want to get involved with coaching. Lastly I want to urge you to be careful of getting scammed.

Buzz

In a 9-handed game with a mix of players that include VPIPs between ~20% and ~60%, how big of a mistake would it be to play a completely static and nitty preflop game of top 15% vpip with no consideration for position or players already in the pot?

You probably will want to be almost that tight, but why wouldn't you want to start thinking about position?

I don't think I can improve upon AKQJ10's answer. I can maybe add a bit.

Depending on one's point of view, it's a mistake, but not a beginner's mistake.

Position is very, very important when playing pot-limit Omaha-8, but not nearly as important when playing at the loose, full table of fixed-limit Omaha-8 you have described. The difference is when you bet in a fixed-limit game, an opponent who has position on you can only raise by the same amount you have just bet, not possibly three times as much.

This thread is for questions from someone relatively new to the game, someone who is more or less an Omaha-8 beginner. There's a lot for someone who is newly learning Omaha-8 to assimilate that will more or less become second nature after gaining experience.

We advise newbs to play tightly while they mostly watch and learn. When you carefully watch an opponent for a while, you naturally learn about the individual's habits. You get a better idea of what will work well and what won't work well at that particular table of individuals. Moreover you gradually learn about the importance of position.

I'm presupposing eagerness to learn, reasonable patience, and intelligence.

Buzz

I'm brand new to Omaha8 but have played 3k+ hands trying to get the hang of it. Below is an example of something that happens a lot, and I can't figure it out. How can there be more than one high hand when they are not of equal value?

Merge - $0+$0.00|<> Hi (6 max) - Omaha Hi - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG: 1,800.00
MP: 2,100.00
CO: 1,500.00
BTN: 1,380.00
Hero (SB): 800.00
BB: 1,420.00

Hero posts SB 10.00, BB posts BB 20.00

Pre Flop: (pot: 30.00) Hero has K 8 7 T

UTG calls 20.00, fold, CO calls 20.00, BTN calls 20.00, fold, BB checks

Flop: (90.00, 4 players) 2 7 5
BB bets 45.00, UTG calls 45.00, fold, BTN calls 45.00

Turn: (225.00, 3 players) K
BB bets 20.00, UTG calls 20.00, BTN raises to 162.00, BB calls 142.00, UTG calls 142.00

River: (711.00, 3 players) A
BB checks, UTG checks, BTN checks

BB shows 2 7 J 6 (Two Pair, Sevens and Twos) (Pre 37%, Flop 54%, Turn 11%)
UTG shows J A 3 3 (One Pair, Aces) (Pre 23%, Flop 12%, Turn 7%)
BTN shows 3 5 K A (Two Pair, Aces and Kings) (Pre 40%, Flop 34%, Turn 82%)
BTN wins 356.00
UTG wins 178.00
BTN wins 177.00

BTN won the high. UTG and BTN chopped the low (both had A2357 for low).

I knew there had to be an explanation! I was looking at the automated descriptions of the hands without noticing they were irrelevant.

Thanks!

thesilverbail has given you a correct explanation.

Somehow you used an Omaha-high-only hand history convertor instead of a hand history convertor for Omaha-8. Perhaps that's why you were confused.

It's usually easier if you arrange the numbers from the highest to the lowest, counting aces as "1." Thus the winning low hands are better understood if read as 75321.

Sometimes we might say both of the winning low hands had a "live 3."

Buzz

Question about a hand.

Not sure how to import but here was detail

Hero dealt 8sTc9sJc
Villan dealt 9d8c6h4c

Flop comes 887QT. Say the T doesn't coming give me a full house who wins the hand or is it a tie. I thought you must always play 2 hole cards but I was told was lucky to not split. Please give thoughts. I always thought you must play 2 hole cards and that I would of won unless he hit his full house with my J kicker. I was told I got lucky for hitting full house and not splitting pot.

You're correct. You each must play a kicker. You had the better high on the turn, 888QJ vs 888Q9. But you weren't that far head in equity terms, because several low cards give your opponent the low half; a 4, 5, or 6 gives him a scoop; and a 9 chops with you.. Perhaps that's why he said you were lucky not to split? Or more likely, he was hopeful that a ten would be an out for him (because it makes a straight) so he was just running his mouth....

...and therefore:

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

865,920 trials (Exhaustive)

board: KKK

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
2x3y4z5w	0.00%	0	0	0	0	0
2w3z4y6x	100.00%	865,920	865,920	0	0	0

I guess you mean the board is 887QT, with the cards delivered to the board in that order, 887 on the flop, Q on the turn, and T on the river. And since you haven't indicated suits for the board cards, I guess suits don't matter.

Depends what the river card is.
• If the river is a five, then Villain makes a straight (98765) while Hero only has trip eights.
• If the river is an ace, deuce, trey, four, or six, then the pot is split with Villain winning low and Hero winning high.
• If the river is a nine, then the pot is split with both Hero and Villain making a full house, eights full of nines.
• If the river is a seven, queen, or king, then low is not possible and Hero wins high using his eight and jack for trip eights with a jack kicker.
• If the river is a ten or jack, then low is not possible and Hero wins high with a full house.

Thus
• the hand is a tie if the river is an ace, deuce, trey, four, six, or nine (a total of twenty cards),
• Villain scoops if the river is a five (a total of four cards), and
• Hero scoops if the river is anything else (a total of sixteen cards).

That is correct for Omaha-8 (or Omaha-high).

I guess in a way you were lucky. However, you were favored. That is you had more equity in the hand than Villain.

Not exactly. (See above).

In a way, you were lucky. However, saying you were lucky is misleading because it implies you were an underdog after the turn rather than the favorite. A better way to phrase what happened would be to tell you that you were not unlucky.

You didn't ask, but neither your hand nor Villain's hand is a very good starting hand. In general when you play high/low split games, you should like high cards, mostly ace and kings, for high and you should like low cards, mostly wheel cards, for low. Instead, what both you and Villain hold are mostly middle cards, sixes, sevens, eights, nines, and tens. Middle cards are not generally good cards in starting hands because middle cards don't win often enough for high nor do they win often enough for low. It's just that simple.

I like neither your starting hand nor Villain's starting hand.

But heads up, starting from before the flop, you have more equity than Villain:

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

1,086,008 trials (Exhaustive)

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
8sTc9sJc	53.85%	383,482	737,209	68,365	0	0
9d8c6h4c	46.15%	280,434	280,434	68,365	605,984	0

Then after this particular flop, Villain is favored.

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

820 trials (Exhaustive)

board: 887

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
8sTc9sJc	43.48%	184	478	67	0	0
9d8c6h4c	56.52%	275	275	67	520	0

And then after the turn, Hero is again the favorite:

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

40 trials (Exhaustive)

board: 887Q

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
8sTc9sJc	57.50%	16	28	2	0	0
9d8c6h4c	42.50%	10	10	2	16	0

Going back and forth between being the favorite and the underdog happens often in Omaha-8. Since Villain was the favorite immediately after the flop, one could say Hero was lucky to win after that particular flop.

But Hero was the favorite before the flop and after the turn.

Welcome to the world of Omaha-8.

Buzz

I just bought Ray Zees hi-lo book.

I only got thru the first 5-10 pages of the O8 half and think its excellent advice. Even though it wasnt made for the online age, he talks about loose games that if you play tight you can make money by nut peddling and scooping.


I feel I have been doing things the oposite. I need to learn to PLAY TIGHT first then open up. this WHOLE TIME I was worried abut playing so tight I was leaving money on the table. especially since I felt I dont scoop enough and thought only playing for half the pots would b ok

Good choice, in my opinion.

I agree.

I think so too.

You are leaving money on the table when you play too tightly. But as a beginner learning the game, there are other more important considerations. As you play longer, assuming you're capable of learning, you'll become a more skilled player, and then you can worry about playing too tightly and leaving money on the table.

Buzz

hye guys I ve been re-reading Zees Hi-Lo book.

for Preflop play
He doesn't really seem to be a big fan of raising much. Citing fluctuations to your roll and whatnot.

Whether UTG or LP, Can I still 2 and sometimes 3 bet my premiums

I have basically been only playing hands like A-2-4-5 , A-2-3-x, A-A-3-4 and A-A-2-x hands. Can I raise with my top top range of hands or should I only call in EP?



ALso A3 hads at these rather looser micro stake games. Can I treat A3 ALMOST like A2 or does the A3 need a 7 or lower for akicker?


and last question. with a A2 hand. can I still call 2 and 3 bets PRe? or will I need something more substantial to go along?

Yeah, it's hard for me to tell is this is just reflective of an old-school B&M gambling mentality where there's so much variance in your yearly win that you don't push small edges. I'm certainly raising good hands for value a LOT in live O8.

You do need to consider pushing (HU, top pair) versus pulling (volume) hands, though. Ask for details if you don't know the concept.


If the game's extremely loose (~7 per flop), i might play any A3 because it's getting more value from A4 and 32 than it is losing from making a lot of second-nuts. In only somewhat loose games (~4 to the flop), i'm requiring a little something else: suited ace is great, another wheel card is good, two broadway cards is very good, a king is good. A 6 or 7 per se isn't worth too much, although 6s go very well with all-wheel hands like A356.

I'm not sure if cold calling a raise in a pretty loose game with something like A335 is a leak. Probably a small one.

In most games they're playable for 2 bets cold. If the raiser has to have AA or A2 and the players behind, including the blinds, are unlikely to give her action than you might muck the really trashy A2s -- rainbow hands, hands with small pairs, hands with sidecards 6 thru 9.

thanks a bunch. Also, Im assuming that 2 bet means raise and 3bet means re raise?

the micro stake games here usually are 4-7 per flop. I have been folding a lot of A3 hands. If I get an A35x hand. Wether suited or unsuited. I might call.


even though it doesn't happen TOO often at these 5/10c and 25/50c games. I sometimes have trouble in games were we see a raise pre.



Also is folding A45 in any position with A being suited too nitty? I am thinking about calling it fro now on if its only 1bet(means im only facing a limp??) and A is suited. and im assuming A34 and A35 can also be called from any position at these stakes?