yes nut low and that a2345 straight

You can still use the 2 even tho its a "pair" on board?

you use your a4

Yes.

5432A is your low.

You use 5 3 2 from the board and 4 A from your hand.

Buzz

What are some decent numbers for a tight player at lower limits? IE VP$IP, W$SD, PF Raise etc

Your question seems a reasonable question for the newb's thread and I like to answer reasonable questions in the newb's thread.

But alas, I don't know the answer. Seems to me there's somewhat of a range, depending on one's style and how one's opponents are playing.

I don't know exactly what you mean by "tight," but even if I knew, I couldn't answer your question.

Perhaps someone else will be able to give you a good answer.

If someone doesn't answer here in the newb's thread, feel free to repost your question as a separate thread in the forum. Perhaps you'll get a better response there (although it seems to me not an easy question to answer).

Buzz

hi,

I have been playing NLH for more than a year but last 2 months I changed to sngs - and I m doing great $$ wise but it is somehow a solved game, and I need something to work on, so I tough why not learn split pot games? I m an online pro and I was playing 2/4 when I moved to sngs FWI. Question is, I have read lots of holdem books, watched tons of holdem videos, but never played a single hand of a split pot game (I just know the rules).

1) Where should I start? I love to read (maybe I m even addicted), what books should I buy? I also still have subscription in almost every video-site, there are any god videos out here in omaha/8?

2) I doubt I can play lower than 0.5/1, what should be my bankroll for this game?

3) It is possible/easy to multitable this game? I m asking because it is very dificult to me to concentrate in the game if I m playing less than 3/4 tables in Holdem, so I m not sure if I will invest my time/money.

Thanks in advance

1) learn how to read lows fast. And then start reading your own hands (counting draws etc) Best teacher is simply experience and posting hands IMO (and responding to others hands)

2) Depends if you want to learn PLO8/NLO8 (which isn't offered in any real mix games) or FLO8

3) yup most people play around 4 tables and some sickos are playing 24 tables
the hardest part is just getting hand reading down pact

For a "decent" "tight" player I'd say VP$IP: 18-20, PFR: 5+. Though you could definitely play more profitably by increasing both stats. Anything below this and I consider the player way too tight or way too passive. At low limits I would assume the W$SD would be around 50% but that's just a guess.

My sample size isnt very big, 1740 hands right now, my VP$IP is 16.1, PFR is 3.7 and my W$SD is 67.2. I'm messing around with raising more with bigger hands and so far its been successful so my PFR should be rising.

So, I'm going to give pot limit a try today, at micro stakes online... I've never played any form of Omaha/8 before, but I've been doing some reading and I think I understand enough to not have my outcome be too bad. But I have some questions.

I think I can probably make most of my decisions based on pot equity. Am I right? Is this how you guys approach things?

Just for example:
I have A-2-8-10 rainbow and the flop comes 3-5-K rainbow with 5 players and I'm last to act.

At this point, I can say that I have 4 outs that will give me a great chance to scoop with the wheel. I have 11 other outs that give me the nut low. So my pot equity would be roughly around 100*0.2 (wheel) + 50*0.5 (nut low) = 45%. So, if I'm last to act, would the best play be to call any bet that is roughly 45% or less than the pot? Or maybe a little more (50-60ish) than that because of implied odds?

Also, it seems like calling and inducing many players to remain in the pot is usually more profitable than raising, when you have a great hand. I'm unsure of good examples of when its time to jam the pot. I'm thinking maybe when you have the following?

Here's another example:
Lets say I'm holding Kc-10c-9h-6h from the BB and I'm first to act in a 3 way pot. The flop comes Ac-Jc-5d.

Would this be a good point to jam the pot? You've got a lot of outs to make the nuts and scoop, but you don't want people to backdoor into the low hand or something else stupid. So there's maybe a slight amount of fold equity (if there ever is any, in this game?) and you don't have a made hand yet, but could easily scoop if your card comes?

I would really love advice on when raising and potting your bets is appropriate. This is my biggest question as a PLO8 newb.

tl;dr: Is it good to make decisions based on pot equity? When is it appropriate to raise/jam the pot?

No. Not exactly, although pot equity is certainly a consideration.

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

board: 35K

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
As2h8dTc	26.45%	27,129	32,899	11,215	226,225	90,384
****	14.72%	37,726	104,421	16,446	21,030	25,137
****	14.65%	37,988	103,800	16,278	20,669	24,905
****	14.70%	37,978	104,356	16,294	20,619	24,959
****	14.72%	37,948	104,447	16,357	20,677	25,382
****	14.75%	38,185	104,894	16,348	20,595	25,190

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

board: 35K

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
As2h8dTc	29.13%	37,470	46,158	11,886	250,180	76,085
****	17.73%	47,745	129,420	15,502	24,586	24,740
****	17.72%	47,533	129,520	15,582	24,425	24,749
****	17.68%	47,294	129,133	15,465	24,413	24,984
****	17.73%	47,583	129,546	15,537	24,597	24,861

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

board: 35K

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
As2h8dTc	32.82%	54,322	67,647	12,138	277,585	60,391
****	22.36%	62,583	168,123	14,462	29,805	24,524
****	22.43%	62,840	168,657	14,614	29,586	24,581
****	22.39%	62,879	168,018	14,665	29,942	24,450

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

board: 35K

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
As2h8dTc	38.99%	87,832	107,204	12,302	313,357	44,229
****	30.53%	90,011	237,100	13,215	36,150	24,565
****	30.48%	89,836	236,458	13,279	36,417	24,758

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

board: 35K

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
As2h8dTc	51.73%	173,667	197,715	11,465	363,283	24,215
****	48.27%	150,018	390,820	11,465	45,003	24,215

There's more to it than just comparing your hand to a random hand, but as you can see, your pot equity depends on the number of opponents, for one thing.

Depends on various factors. The game is Omaha-8, but you have to "play poker."

No. Bordering on suicidal, in my humble opinion. I suppose it depends on your opponents to some extent. You can get a rough evaluation of the strength of your starting hand by going to ProPokerTools.com

Omaha Hi/Lo Hand Ranking ?

Hand	Average Rank	Best Rank	Worst Rank
KcTc9h6h	67.0	67.0	67.0

This starting hand, KcTc9h6h, is rated in the bottom third of Omaha-8 starting hands. Despite being double suited, it's not considered a good starting hand.

After this flop, Hero does pick up the nut club draw. But heads-up against a random hand, you're a 4:5 dog.

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

board: AJ5

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
KcTc9h6h	44.34%	178,515	345,819	8,817	0	0
****	55.66%	245,364	245,364	8,817	277,355	0

And anyone who will see the flop is probably playing better than random cards. If so, you're an even bigger dog. Bottom line here: The nut flush draw is not enough to generally continue, if that's all the hand has going for it.

Too complex and general for me to give a good answer here. Sorry.

Try playing some hands, post a couple of hand histories in the forum (not in the newb's thread, please, and one hand per thread, please), and ask specific questions about the hands. You'll probably get some insight from experienced players. There's quite a lot to the game. I think it's fun and interesting to learn about it.

Good luck.

Buzz

You need to also consider that your are probably up against another A2 as well. Playing A2 with no help isn't the best way to go about making money in the pot limit games. In LO8 it won't be that bad but in PLO8 it can hurt. Although this hand does have an 8 for some help.

Im new to this game as well and naked A2 is something I quickly learned can cost $$$.

GL

Yup, naked A2 hands can be killers. You can easily get sucked into a big pot and either miss completely or hit your low and get quartered.

If micro level FR, I would never jam it from OOP. I could make a pot size bet as a semi-bluff in 6-max, but if raised, I would fold, instead of jamming it.

However, if I had nut low draw and any flush draw or set, I would jam it (2c-3d-8s-9c or 2c-3d-5h-5s). With Jack set, I might jam it if I bet pot and one reraise and one called and none of them are passive nut peddlers (AAxx!). Sometimes you butt your J-set against A-set, but in many cases, they would raise you with nut-low draw and top pair or nut flush draw only.

Sorry if this was answered before, but is there a thread containing some good 2p2 strategy posts?

There are lots of threads containing good strategy posts.

You wrote "strategy," but do you really want "strategy" or do you want "tactics"? Strategy is an overall plan. Tactics are the specifics of how to implement the overall plan.

At any rate, this forum is a site for polite discussion of Omaha-8 issues, a place for presentation of different ideas. There is not universal agreement about what the best strategy is or what is a good idea. I (personally) think what works best depends on one's opponents and also one's goals. Some ideas seem better than others, but all points of view are welcome if politely presented. Everyone doesn't agree with me about that or even about how "polite" the discussion should be.

This particular thread (the newb's thread) is a thread hopefully designed to show those new or relatively new to Omaha-8 how to survive while they learn the game. The advice given in this thread, or at least some of the advice, tends to be conservative and is not necessarily intended to apply to an experienced Omaha-8 player.

Some sorting of forum threads is done, but it's along the lines of "fixed-limit," "pot-limit," and "no-limit," rather than one of the categories being "strategy."
• labels are used for fixed limit threads,
• labels are used for pot limit threads, and
• labels are used for no limit threads.

I didn't locate any strategy posts for you, but perhaps you can understand the difficulty that would be involved in separating them or labeling them.

And since we leave it up to the individual reader to decide for himself/herself who gives good advice, even if we did separate or label strategy posts who would decide which were "good"? A lot of posters would be more pissed at me than they already are if it were up to me to decide who gives the best advice.

Buzz

Thanks for your inside on the Omaha-8 forums, yeah, I think I was referring to tactics. Guess I have a lot of catching up to, want to learn some new games beside holdem and I find Omaha-8 quite interesting.

Greetings

I'm a Holdem NL player - On Sunday Evenings our local card room hosts a Omaha 8/B 3/6 with 1/2 kill game. Two things I'd like to know -

1) Where can I get started on how to learn to play this game better? Books, training videos, etc.
2) Is it normal for almost the entire table (usually 7 players out of a full 9) to see the flop, even after a 3b/cap?

Greetings.

Skim through this thread for a starter. Various questions you might have may already be answered in this thread. There are various links to other threads which may be of interest to you. For example, post #45 in this thread has a link to our book containment thread.

Seven out of nine players seeing the flop is not normally what you'll encounter, but neither does it seem unusual.

Five or more seeing the flop is usually a good game. If the game gets too tight it's hard to beat the rake in a brick and mortar casino.

Three-betting and capping before the flop is a bit unusual and usually occurs when the game has some players who are regular Texas hold 'em players rather than regulars to Omaha-8. But if there's a fool in the game, the regulars may bet more aggressively than normal.

Seems to me that if more than one player thinks he has the best hand at the table, and if seven players are seeing the flop, some players are probably mistaken. Also seems to me that in order to be more certain of making a profit you should want to be playing in a game where your opponents are making more mistakes than you are.

Not impossible to be wildly lucky, I suppose, especially for one session. (However, I think over the long haul, luck more or less evens out).

Buzz

*Blink*

Damn..... I've got alot of reading ahead of me. I need a few cases of RedBull and some sandwiches. This is going to take a while.

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. Hopefully the next time I post I'll be a bit more educated. :-)

Hi,

What is good winrate in sng18 ( from low limits to high)?
Maybe you can post your winrate?

And another question - from which level ( PStars ) sng are normaly playable without crazy allins all the time.
Now I am playing 3.28 and 1.xx$ sng - but there are a lot of all-ins.

P.S. It is normally to call all-in with 2pairs when flop+ turn = 9 J Q K
I had 10 K A X and opponent got fullhouse on river

regards,
Uldis

Hi. Welcome to the forum.

Seems to me a good win rate is winning more than you can earn or win doing something else, and doing that steadily and consistently for the next forty years or so.

Note that normally you start out working for less than you eventually will be earning. That is, if you're salaried, your salary increases with experience and as you move up to a supervisory position, and if you start your own business, you gradually build up your clientele so that as your business grows or expands, you're put in a better position to gradually increase your earnings. That's the idea anyhow.

However, it's kind of tough to do that playing sng18s for a living.

You obviously must realize there are more losers than winners in sng18. My advice to you is to do something where you'll have a better chance of being a winner than a loser.

My own firm opinion is if you're smart enough to earn a decent living playing poker, then you're smart enough to probably earn more doing something else.

I don't want to discourage you from playing, but I advise you to play because you enjoy the game rather than to earn a living.
• Don't play for more than you can afford to lose.
• If you win, more power to you. There are a number of posters to this site who are overall winners.
• If you win a substantial amount (thousands of dollars), you might then consider poker as a career - but not until you're winning more that you'll be able to make in ten or twenty years doing something else.

I don't know.

I don't know what is normal. For me, whether to call or not would depend on
• (1) how much it cost to call compared to the size of the pot, and
• (2) how much I believed my opponent's bet meant he/she had a possible straight.

If Villain had two pairs, then from his perspective he had four outs, and he might also have had some other outs for a non-nut flush or a straight. We'll never know without knowing all his cards. If all he had was the four outs, then the other cards were all good for you. That would make you a nine or ten to one favorite, something like that. It's a bummer when you're a nine or ten to one favorite and then your opponent makes his draw on the river, but it more or less goes with the territory.

When that happens to me I just keep my mouth shut and keep playing. If someone is bucking the odds, although he can have some snitches of good luck, I figure I'll eventually prevail.

I don't want to embarrass you or put you down, but maybe this needs to be said: In the culture in which I was raised (and still live), it's considered bad taste to ask someone how much money he makes. That includes how much money he makes doing some particular thing, such as winning at poker.

Buzz

Thank you for reply, Buzz

So questions was not about poker for living - just for free time and some new information

So - about winrate ( 18sng ), target was to know - how profitable they are and if it is worth to play them regulary , not no know how much money for example You are making by playing them . for a moment I am playing a little bit more than a month only plo8 18sng - average 4/5 in a day and in this time I raised a little my bankroll.
But 18sng from my opinion is very swingy - sometimes you are playing correct/good all the time but limper with nothing wins you on river. ( And to be profitable - it is not enough to be in 4th place every second game)
For example hands from my previous post - hi had no straigh or flush draw and no low probability at all , but hi called all-in ( blinds was 50/100 and all-in was 1000 or similar ). And I dont think that this was my mistake - just very bad luck.
it seems that in lowest limits it is very hard or impossible to make them fold - a lot of players are playing bingo And the bubble turns 18sng into a bingo time much more because of big blinds).

Sorry about my english if somthing is not clear what I wrote
best regards,
ronnixw

You're welcome.

I think that's good.

Your English is very clear. (Not perfect, but very clear).

Buzz