That's just not true!
considering effective pot odds and reverse implied odds is an absolute must when deciding whether to complete from the small blind with a tricky-to-play hand!
for further reading about blind defending:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/42...-101-a-376028/
going over the nicely written different point of views presented in this link is a real treat!

Is there any solid HU o8 advice for a relatively new player to see?

How do you make you starting hand selection? By their rank or just by your experience?

Im with you I dont use a HUD at all unless playing Holdem I may be considered a PLO8 fish for admitting this lol...

Yes.

Google "Heads Up Omaha-8." Also google "Heads Up Texas hold 'em."

There are only 169 uniquely different Texas hold 'em hands as compared to 16432 uniquely different Omaha-8 hands. That alone makes Omaha-8 more complicated than Texas hold 'em. In addition, Omaha-8 has a high/low aspect, making it even more complex. A way to simplify is by breaking Omaha-8 hands down into two card combinations. There are only 169 of these two card combinations, and if you'll look at the recommended list of starting hands for newbs, there are only a hand-full of these for a newb to learn.

Assuming you're not ******ed in terms of card sense, you can survive as a newb in a full game by playing very tightly as you gradually learn the game.

However, you cannot play tightly in a heads-up game and survive. Indeed, your initial strategy should probably be to raise with every hand from the small blind.

But if you're going to do that, then it behooves you to know how more than a hand-full of two card combinations fit into the scheme of things. You still want to have a better fit with the flop than your opponent.

Since you need to know how more hands fare, heads-up Omaha-8 play is more complicated than full game Omaha-8 play.

Yet in a way, heads-up play, whether Texas hold 'em or Omaha-8 is simpler because of the aggressive aspect of the game. It's a bit like the car game called "chicken" where two drivers get in two cars and race towards each other, risking a heads-on collision. The one who swerves first is the "chicken."

At any rate, this thread is for newb's questions. The answer to your question is, "Yes."

But my advice for newbs is learn Omaha-8 hand values in a full game first, and also learn heads-up poker principles playing heads-up Texas hold 'em before attempting heads-up Omaha-8.

That's just my humble opinion.

Buzz

By "you," do you mean how do I make my starting hand selection, or do you mean how does one make his starting hand selection?

If you're asking me how I make my starting hand selection, how tightly, aggressively, tenaciously I play depends on my specific opponents, who is in the hand with me, and the image I want to portray. In other words, my starting hand selection is variable.

I'm not a newb. Depending on the exact situation, how much longer I intend to play with the group at the table, and the effect I want to achieve, I might play anything.

Buzz

Afterwards my question seems quite stupid to myself. With the starting hand selection I meant starting hand classification to distinguish between mediocre hands and bad hands (just by their strength)., because Im feeling very unsecure preflop.

Another question: Preflop raises.
Am I right? The only reason to raise is the folding of other players. You shouldnt raise for value.

I should start every post with "Dear Buzz", because you are answering all my questions. Thanks to your effort.

I would suggest that raising for value preflop is an important part of the game and sometimes, depending on the specific situation and our hand, we should do this.

A quick example of when we might raise purely for value might be raising on the button after multiple limpers with an A2xx hand.

Ive read the "High Low Split Poker" by Ray Zee and he recommends raising to narrow the field of opponents down (and to attack the blinds). Raising for value is "normally not the best strategy". Only the very very best hands should be raised for value (Zee's example was (A2)(A3) ). Im not happy with the preflop chapters of the book, so maybe you could recommend other sources for this topic.

Isnt a value raise with A2** a little thin? You are just a little ahead against 3 limpers with a range 10-30%. If you give the limpers better ranges the advantage decreases. I wouldnt risk an additional bet for this little additional value.
I hope this statistic is useful:

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
A2**	29.77%	80,342	117,250	16,295	146,642	55,899
10%-30%	23.35%	79,505	150,082	16,177	33,595	29,302
10%-30%	23.48%	79,937	150,787	16,210	33,750	29,559
10%-30%	23.39%	79,642	150,453	15,891	33,616	29,575

Not a stupid question at all. Starting hands are very important. I failed to mention that the number of players at the table who are dealt cards is important. If you just look at the extremes, we're advising you to play tightly while you learn in a full game, but if you play heads-up in a cash game against an unknown opponent, you should start out playing nearly every hand, and playing and raising every hand from the small blind. Then as you learn the ways of your opponent, you adapt accordingly.

Starting hands differ, depending on the number of opponents. Simplistically, the pair of jacks in JJ** is an above average holding heads-up, but is below average in a six-handed game. All pairs below jacks are below average two-card components of starting hands in Omaha-8 regardless of the number of players. That is not to say that expert players never play hands with pairs less than jacks, but we're advising newbs to tend to avoid these hands (unless your hand has one of the starting combinations we recommend).

There's quite a bit more involved in playing heads-up than full game. For one thing, the pressure is always "on," whereas in a cash game when you're sitting out a hand, as you will be doing with most hands if you follow the advice given in this thread, you can closely observe play without being under pressure.

Your observant opponents in a full game will realize you play tightly. Watch carefully how everyone plays against other tight players, then bear that in mind when you're involved in a hand, and adapt accordingly. (That's the general idea).

You can somewhat play your cards in a full game, choosing to only enter the fracas with the best of them - and if just some of your opponents are not very good, you can do well, showing a small profit for your effort (assuming the rake is not too high for you to beat). But to be long-term successful in heads-up matches, you have to play your opponent more than your own cards.

No.

When posting here, you get better responses if you stipulate the conditions of the game.

Heads-up, I believe raising every time from the small blind should be your default starting mode. (Then you adjust according to how your opponent reacts).

Regardless of the game size (number of opponents dealt cards), you don't want opponents playing as though they can see some of your cards. If you always raise with AA** and A2**, for example, when you do raise, you're marked for AA** or A2**, and when you don't raise, your opponent will figure you probably don't have AA** or A2**.

As another example, if you use Hutchison's system as a guide and always raise with 30 points but never raise with fewer points, then a sharp opponent will soon recognize what you're doing, will play you for a 30 point hand when you raise, and will play you for a 20-30 point hand when you don't raise.

But if there are no opponents in your game who are sharp enough to gain inferences about your hand based on whether you raise or not, then what is written in the two previous paragraphs doesn't matter, at least not as much. Under these conditions, what the heck, go ahead and raise with your good hands, with your 30 point hands or with your good AA** and A2** (etc.) hands.

If you read lots of my posts, it may seem as though I do not advocate pre-flop raising for value in Omaha-8. I suppose that's generally true. It's certainly true in a full game (or even a full six handed game) that more of my pre-flop raises are tactical than for value. In general, (1) I prefer to keep the pot size small so as to have more leverage on later betting rounds, and (2) I don't like giving capable opponents hand information.

But I think it may seem that I'm even more opposed to pre-flop raises for value than I actually am. That's because in the hand histories posted in this forum, in general players, especially from Texas hold 'em backgrounds, raise too much before the flop. (That's just my opinion. Lots of better players than I am disagree).

Whether or not it's more correct to raise than limp when playing any game depends on the particular opponents you're facing, how they play, and your position. But in general, in my humble opinion, it is more correct to raise when you enter the fracas when you're playing Texas hold 'em than when you're playing Omaha-8. (Again, just my opinion. Better players than I am disagree with me).

For example, as noted above, when you're in the small blind playing heads-up, your default play should be to raise, to attack the big blind. The big blind will probably soon start to counter, probably often re-raising, but the small blind poster only acts first on the first betting round. After that, the big blind poster has to go first. It's a huge advantage in heads-up play to act last.

When you're raising from the small blind in a heads-up contest, it's possible your opponent won't figure out how to cope. Sklansky and Malmuth, in Hold 'Em Poker For Advanced Players suggest that if your opponent only calls your raise one third of the time, with the best one third of his hands, you're guaranteed a profit by raising every time. I believe that principle also works for Omaha-8.

I'd rather you didn't. I fear that might discourage various other posters who are actually better poker players than I am from responding in this thread. Some of those who post on this forum are pros, making a living playing and teaching poker. I'm what is called a "recreational" player. Omaha-8 is my hobby. I want the pros to feel free to chime in when they have good advice for a newb.

The intent of this thread was to have a place where newbs could have their simple, non-controversial questions about basic Omaha-8 play answered.

You're welcome.

Buzz

I agree.

Correct. "Value" would be why you'd raise with that hand.

Why you might not raise with that hand is that it might tip your opponents off about one important component of your starting hand. And if you always raised with that hand after several limpers, then when you didn't raise, your hand would also be tipped (you don't have A2**). Even if you're mixing up your play enough so that your opponent has no good justification for reasoning you hold, or don't hold, A2**, if he's correct about what you actually have, and if he plays accordingly, you're at a disadvantage.

I'm not suggesting you never raise before the flop with A2**, just that although there is a positive aspect, there is also a negative aspect. In my humble opinion, you need to balance these to make good decisions.

Buzz

Of course I wont do it, it was meant humorously. I hope nobody took offense by this post, because he thinks I'm ungrateful to him.
Im very happy about every answer to my questions, because I really need them to improve my terrible Omaha8 play.

Yes it's thin value, but in a game where starting hands run quite close in equity a lot of value is thin in this game. Thin value is still value and it all adds up. However, if you wish to not raise in these situations while you're learning the game, and beyond, that is of course fine. However, whenever anything I say feels to you that it contradicts Ray Zee, if you've any sense you'll listen to him not me

Completely agree with Buzz about balancing and the reasons to not raise with this hand too.

Would it make sense to have separate Omaha/8 forums for "limit" and "pot limit"?

It would make sense but it also makes sense not to separate at this time. That is there are pros and cons for both points of view (1. separate, and 2. stay together for now).

At any rate, not too long ago we decided as a forum, by poll after a lengthy discussion, to not separate at this time.

We're labeling fixed-limit posts with a club, .
We're labeling pot-limit posts with a diamond, .
We're labeling no-limit posts with a spade, .

Post that are not specific for fixed-limit (limit), pot-limit, or no-limit do not have one of these suited labels (, , ).

You should have no trouble navigating by simply keying on the appropriate suit symbol(s).

Buzz

Thank you. Off to read some "clubs"!!!!!

Hello i wanna know what win rate of bb/100 hands in fixed limit omaha 8 is bad/ok/good /great/
if stakes those matter im currently playing 0.25/0.5 , 0.5/1 winrate about 8 bb/100 is that ok?

as long as you beat the rake your doing amazing.

the rake is absolutely monster in the micro stakes for LO8

Hello. Welcome to the forum.

Seems to me it depends on what you want.

For every dollar that someone wins, someone else is destined to lose more than a dollar. That's because of the rake taken by the casinos.

Common sense should tell you that either a few individuals are heavy losers or many individuals are medium or light losers. Actually there are both (a few individuals who lose heavily and lots of individuals who lose medium amounts or slight amounts).

So if you're winning at all, good for you!

I don't think anyone can tell you what a good win is, because it's subjective. To someone who's losing or breaking even, any amount at all is good. To someone who needs to earn $200 a day to keep his wife happy, then any less is bad.

Of course stakes matter! How much money are we talking about? How long does it take you to play 100 hands? How much actual money do you make per hundred hands you play. If you're playing poker to make money, how much money you make per hour is what matters.

How much money could you earn doing something else? If money is what matters to you, and you can earn more money playing poker than doing something else (and if twenty years from now you expect to be earning more money playing poker than you could be earning in twenty years if you started preparing yourself to do something else), then playing poker to make money makes sense.

On the other hand, if money is what matters to you, and you cannot earn more money playing poker than doing something else, then playing poker to make money doesn't make sense.

Sounds OK to me if it's OK for you. Is that better than the minimum wage?

Buzz

Hm i'm not unhappy but of course i'm not satisfied.Just there aren't so many materials for omaha8 and i'm really not sure how i'm doing like winrate.I just don't know what is average win rate in LO8 and PLO8 even i'm playing from more than a year i just don't have examples to compare with.About the winning yes of course most of the achievements in poker are money related so i'm playing for the money and of course fun, i enjoy this game a lot.Sadly for me i leave in 3 world country/Southeastern Europe/ and most of the months with poker activity's i cover the minimum wage, usually far more.

Because of the rake taken by casinos, the average for casino players, (on-line or brick-and-mortar), has to be negative however much a casino makes divided by the number of players who play there.

Even so, some (highly skilled, very lucky, or very crafty) individual players manage to show a net profit over the course of a lifetime. If you're showing a profit, good for you.

For anyone who plays in a private game where no rake is taken, then the average win rate in LO8, PLO8, or any poker game is exactly zero.

Buzz

See post #9 in the following thread:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/44.../#post24365042

Hello. I was wondering what was the best training site for pot limit 0/8. which site has the most videos. Just subscribe to deucescracked and they only have one video on the game.

thanks!

I don't know. I suspect different people have different opinions. I wouldn't know who to believe.

I don't know but I don't think the site with the most videos is necessarily the best site for you or anyone to learn how to play pot limit O/8 (although it may be).

I've seen many worthless training videos here and there. That is not to say all training videos are worthless. It's just that more training videos, unless they're excellent and on the learning level of the student do not seem necessarily helpful. To each his own, I suppose.

At any rate, there's another 2+2 forum where videos are better discussed.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/18...us-two-videos/

And there are 2+2 forums where I guess you just watch videos.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/video.php
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/vi...y&categoryid=2
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/vi...&categoryid=10
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/vi...&categoryid=11
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/vi...&categoryid=09
I have not watched any of them.

And when all else fails, there's Google.
http://www.google.com/search?source=...earch&aq=f&oq=

I hope something there is useful to you.

Buzz

I am looking for a good article on limit o h/l and theory behind a solid thought process if anyone has it.
Thanks