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Old 04-12-2017, 06:27 PM   #26
NickMPK
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Re: I flopped Broadway and someone leads out; should I just fold? ($8/$16 LO8)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHip41 View Post
This flop isn't as strong of a hand as you think it is.

I'm not folding the flop, but I'm def waiting for a non flush, no board pairing turn
I don't think you understand the reasons why raising the flop is good. It's not really about your hot-and-cold equity in the hand, it's about protecting whatever equity you do have.

You're going to feel pretty dumb about not raising the flop when the flush when a diamond DOES hit and someone in the field wins with a 7-high flush. Or when two low cards come and you get quartered by someone in the field with nothing by an emergency low.
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Old 04-12-2017, 07:31 PM   #27
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Re: I flopped Broadway and someone leads out; should I just fold? ($8/$16 LO8)

If you are in a game
Where people are folding flush draws on the flop. Find a new game.


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Old 04-12-2017, 09:57 PM   #28
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Re: I flopped Broadway and someone leads out; should I just fold? ($8/$16 LO8)

Quote:
Originally Posted by NickMPK View Post
If the BB didn't have any redraws, why are you giving him an incomplete hand that allows for redraws?
Why are you giving the A345 hand nut hearts? It didn't sound like he had this in your OP.

More generally, I don't understand the usefulness in running the equity assuming you are in almost the worst possible spot to judge the play on the flop when you didn't have anything close to this amount of info at the time when you made the decision. More useful would be giving the BB the full range of hands he might be the flop, and the other players random top x% hands they might call preflop.
here ya go, def not perfect or anything but they give you a pretty good idea how it would look without being too results-oriented hopefully

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Hand Pot equity Scoops Wins HiTies HiWins Lo Ties Lo
[T-K][T-A]20.12% 80,83393,10067,8978,0972,815
Ah3d4d5c32.33% 134,172147,453523131,94514,525
KhJs9c3h33.36% 116,781214,91379,99200
50%14.19% 54,37563,61718,66432,44212,922

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation
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board: AQT
Hand Pot equity Scoops Wins HiTies HiWins Lo Ties Lo
[T-K][T-A]21.64% 77,89992,55678,18424,6343,117
25%19.99% 74,10482,18224,28166,3046,172
KhJs9c3h38.76% 132,685243,396104,78900
40%19.62% 65,99474,42721,85782,3486,587

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
board: AQT
Hand Pot equity Scoops Wins HiTies HiWins Lo Ties Lo
[T-K][T-A]20.64% 73,08586,09079,16522,0402,925
Ac3d23.73% 93,209105,94916,02379,3436,272
KhJs9c3h38.27% 131,331242,767100,07300
40%17.35% 54,74362,80121,56374,6946,668
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Old 04-13-2017, 03:16 AM   #29
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Re: I flopped Broadway and someone leads out; should I just fold? ($8/$16 LO8)

What does this mean in the simulation above?

[T-K][T-A]
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Old 04-13-2017, 03:28 AM   #30
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Re: I flopped Broadway and someone leads out; should I just fold? ($8/$16 LO8)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHip41 View Post
If you are in a game where people are folding flush draws on the flop. Find a new game.
Why would I find a new game when I am in one where people fold their live equity and give it to me? The best poker game is where you bet and everybody folds every time.

Things I want to happen when I flop a straight.
1) people fold their flush draws
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Old 04-13-2017, 08:52 AM   #31
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Re: I flopped Broadway and someone leads out; should I just fold? ($8/$16 LO8)

Quote:
Originally Posted by chillrob View Post
What does this mean in the simulation above?

[T-K][T-A]
Basically 2 hi cards. Any card T thru K and another card T thru A. Includes hands with TT, TJ, KK, AK, etc.
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Old 04-13-2017, 09:03 AM   #32
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Re: I flopped Broadway and someone leads out; should I just fold? ($8/$16 LO8)

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Originally Posted by incrowd View Post
Why would I find a new game when I am in one where people fold their live equity and give it to me? The best poker game is where you bet and everybody folds every time.

Things I want to happen when I flop a straight.
1) people fold their flush draws

you have O/8 Low limit all wrong

You make so much money when people chase a 7 high flush, because we always have the A-high flush draw.

Yes this one hand you want everyone to fold flush draws, but in general, you want weak draws to call because when we have top set/nut flush draw, those people are the reason the games are good
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Old 04-13-2017, 10:40 AM   #33
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Re: I flopped Broadway and someone leads out; should I just fold? ($8/$16 LO8)

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Originally Posted by TheHip41 View Post
you have O/8 Low limit all wrong

You make so much money when people chase a 7 high flush, because we always have the A-high flush draw.

Yes this one hand you want everyone to fold flush draws, but in general, you want weak draws to call because when we have top set/nut flush draw, those people are the reason the games are good
Right, you want your opponents to call when you have their outs dominated but fold when they have a lot of live equity.

This might be an argument for flat calling the bet if you had the nut flush draw and top set. But that's not what you have in this hand.

In this hand, you want to do whatever you can to make trashy flush draw fold, and that means raising.
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Old 04-13-2017, 11:13 AM   #34
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Re: I flopped Broadway and someone leads out; should I just fold? ($8/$16 LO8)

I think you are overvaluing a straight in Omaha H/L on a two flush board

Your hand isnt that good
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Old 04-13-2017, 11:30 AM   #35
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Re: I flopped Broadway and someone leads out; should I just fold? ($8/$16 LO8)

5 star thread
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Old 04-13-2017, 01:08 PM   #36
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Re: I flopped Broadway and someone leads out; should I just fold? ($8/$16 LO8)

Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard33 View Post
Basically 2 hi cards. Any card T thru K and another card T thru A. Includes hands with TT, TJ, KK, AK, etc.
That's what I would have guessed, except the player is supposed to have 4 cards, not 2.
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Old 04-13-2017, 01:59 PM   #37
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Re: I flopped Broadway and someone leads out; should I just fold? ($8/$16 LO8)

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Originally Posted by chillrob View Post
That's what I would have guessed, except the player is supposed to have 4 cards, not 2.
I believe it assigns them two other random cards. Just like typing "A2" will give them a hand with at least one Ace, at least one Deuce, and any two other cards.
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Old 04-13-2017, 02:07 PM   #38
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Re: I flopped Broadway and someone leads out; should I just fold? ($8/$16 LO8)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHip41 View Post
I think you are overvaluing a straight in Omaha H/L on a two flush board

Your hand isnt that good
I think your hand clearly has positive equity over the field. In this circumstance, you either want to get maximum value by forcing opponents with negative equity to put the most money in the pot possible, or you want them to fold their equity to increase your own. Raising accomplishes both objectives.
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Old 04-13-2017, 04:33 PM   #39
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Re: I flopped Broadway and someone leads out; should I just fold? ($8/$16 LO8)

So lets say you raise AcAs UTG in a 10 hands game (LHE), 8 to the flop, 16 sb

flop is 9h 8h 5d

BB bets, do you raise, or call?

Yes you have an equity advantage RIGHT NOW, but the turn card will change your equity so much.

If the turn is 7h, you are done.

Same thing with this hand, if a diamond hits the turn, or the board pairs, you are check/folding the turn.


I think the issue is you are vastly overstating the value of a straight on a flush draw board in O-8
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Old 04-13-2017, 05:22 PM   #40
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Re: I flopped Broadway and someone leads out; should I just fold? ($8/$16 LO8)

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Originally Posted by TheHip41 View Post
Same thing with this hand, if a diamond hits the turn, or the board pairs, you are check/folding the turn.

I think the issue is you are vastly overstating the value of a straight on a flush draw board in O-8
You are not folding if you get the guy with the flush draw to fold.

You are looking at this as too black and white. When you flop a straight, you want every flush draw to fold, but if you get called by one flush draw then you definitely want to be called by any other flush draws too.

Nick isn't overstating the value of a straight. It's a vulnerable hand, but it is better than the opponent's hand, especially if played properly.

If you had A337 in this hand, with the seven high flush draw, would you rather your opponent with a straight made it two bets in front of you (with it possible for the original bettor to reraise when it gets back to him) or just called, allowing you to call for one bet and shut off the action?

Raising increases the equity of the player with the straight, calling increases the pot odds of the player with the baby flush and crappy low draw. Calling is a big mistake.
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Old 04-13-2017, 11:24 PM   #41
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Re: I flopped Broadway and someone leads out; should I just fold? ($8/$16 LO8)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHip41 View Post
So lets say you raise AcAs UTG in a 10 hands game (LHE), 8 to the flop, 16 sb

flop is 9h 8h 5d

BB bets, do you raise, or call?

Yes you have an equity advantage RIGHT NOW, but the turn card will change your equity so much.

If the turn is 7h, you are done.

Same thing with this hand, if a diamond hits the turn, or the board pairs, you are check/folding the turn.
The situations are not that similar, but you should absolutely raise with AA in that spot. I think it's even more clear-cut than the OP's hand. And in a LHE game, you can't just immediately fold an overpair when a scare card comes in anyway.

Quote:
I think the issue is you are vastly overstating the value of a straight on a flush draw board in O-8
You seem really obsessed with how "good" of a hand a straight is, and that this is all that should factor into your decisions. I've also studied up on the poker hand rankings. I know a straight loses to a flush or a full house. But I've also heard this referred to as "level zero" poker thinking, so there really must be more to the analysis.

You should be thinking about the range of hands your opponents likely have and how different parts of that range will respond to your actions. A lot of hands in the field are going to be very marginal in the eyes of the player holding them, but have enough equity to call a single flop bet. Raising puts these hands in a very difficult spot, while just calling gives them a much easier decision.

Think of it the other way....do you prefer to play against opponents who are transparently only raising with lock nut hands, and otherwise play super-passive, or do you prefer to play against opponents who raise aggressively with draws, marginal hands, and vulnerable made hands as well? You generally don't want to be the type of player you like to play against.
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Old 04-14-2017, 08:49 AM   #42
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Re: I flopped Broadway and someone leads out; should I just fold? ($8/$16 LO8)

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Originally Posted by chillrob View Post
That's what I would have guessed, except the player is supposed to have 4 cards, not 2.
Nick is correct that it just includes any other 2 cards then. So TT2A as well as TTT2 and other hands that might not really be in his range. Like lotus said not perfect.

Last edited by greybeard33; 04-14-2017 at 08:50 AM. Reason: Oops T on the flop
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Old 04-14-2017, 09:07 AM   #43
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Re: I flopped Broadway and someone leads out; should I just fold? ($8/$16 LO8)

Quote:
Originally Posted by incrowd View Post
Why would I find a new game when I am in one where people fold their live equity and give it to me? The best poker game is where you bet and everybody folds every time.

Things I want to happen when I flop a straight.
1) people fold their flush draws
I hope you don't feel this way in PL/NL where they're usually calling without correct odds. That's where the profit comes from.
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Old 04-14-2017, 09:21 PM   #44
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Re: I flopped Broadway and someone leads out; should I just fold? ($8/$16 LO8)

Quote:
Originally Posted by incrowd View Post
The 2nd best poker game is where you bet and everybody folds every time.s
FYP

The best poker game is where you are always winning huge pots getting paid off extremely light in multiple spots every time you bet and players give you tons of free cards and never bluff. It's the easiest game in the world.

The only hard part is getting a hand to show them.

They might go home broke, but at least they don't go home curious.

That being said, I think what you suggest is a fairly close second. And it's so enjoyable just running the whole table over in a game where every steal works and every bluff gets through.
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Old 04-14-2017, 09:30 PM   #45
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Re: I flopped Broadway and someone leads out; should I just fold? ($8/$16 LO8)

Quote:
Originally Posted by inrenokid View Post
high only hands are for suckers
This is definitely nonsense.

Low is only possible 60% of the time by the river across all possible runouts. Also, on some occasions even on boards with low being possible, high only hands can still scoop the pot, particularly with flushes and full houses, if the opponent was counterfeited/double/triple counterfeited. This happens more in tight games and also when the game is shorthanded and people don't generally have strong starting hands. There are also times when you can make your opponent fold a low hand if it isn't strong enough to call a bet with (for example someone with a368 on a 75QJ3 board may fold A6 and bottom pair if they think your "low" is better).

High hands have excellent scoop potential. I'll concede they are speculative and hands with low potential get to see a lot more turns and rivers.

But when it comes with only one low card or no low cards on that flop and you're sitting there with 4 big cards, you're usually in a great spot against weak hands.

The only suckers playing these hands are the ones that don't know when to fold their hand postflop and put too much money in preflop trying to connect.

Last edited by LUCIUS VARENUS; 04-14-2017 at 09:38 PM.
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Old 04-15-2017, 02:58 PM   #46
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Re: I flopped Broadway and someone leads out; should I just fold? ($8/$16 LO8)

Quote:
Originally Posted by inrenokid View Post
high only hands are for suckers and if you are the biggest suck then ....
ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
Hand Pot equity Scoops Wins HiTies HiWins Lo Ties Lo
AsAhKsKh42.87% 170,151338,4996,27100
10%28.51% 71,455122,57612,676110,315111,463
10%28.62% 72,348123,44312,700110,299111,463

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138,238 trials (Randomized)
Hand Pot equity Scoops Wins HiTies HiWins Lo Ties Lo
[T-A][T-A][T-A][T-A]22.67% 22,74337,9512,35500
25%19.43% 10,37423,4233,07014,51513,127
25%19.38% 10,28123,2073,12814,51113,182
25%19.24% 10,25223,3713,08514,21612,929
25%19.28% 10,18623,1313,12714,43913,131

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation
7,286 trials (Randomized)
Hand Pot equity Scoops Wins HiTies HiWins Lo Ties Lo
[T-A][T-A][T-A][T-A]20.33% 1,1131,73713100
25%15.63% 4471,004151524622
25%15.94% 4501,014154548641
25%16.15% 4481,047161512672
25%16.03% 4601,025143538675
25%15.92% 4391,028159537636
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Old 04-16-2017, 10:33 AM   #47
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Re: I flopped Broadway and someone leads out; should I just fold? ($8/$16 LO8)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHip41 View Post
I think you are overvaluing a straight in Omaha H/L on a two flush board

Your hand isnt that good
I value it at around 2:1.

Your post isn't that good
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Old 04-23-2017, 12:18 AM   #48
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Re: I flopped Broadway and someone leads out; should I just fold? ($8/$16 LO8)

Quote:
Originally Posted by chillrob View Post
I'd love to play in a game where you can check-raise from the button...
With the kill by raising the flop ...
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Old 04-23-2017, 12:34 AM   #49
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Re: I flopped Broadway and someone leads out; should I just fold? ($8/$16 LO8)

Fact is with problem , being your starting hand is trash incarnate and worth ever cent you lost. You have no low and a 9, sorry no matter how high you are thinking that hand is bad and with out the gin flop you would never know how bad it is.
The mystery isnt how you should have played your hand but why the A3 Fh didnt bet onthe river if he didnt I dont see that mentioned,
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Old 04-23-2017, 01:11 AM   #50
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Re: I flopped Broadway and someone leads out; should I just fold? ($8/$16 LO8)

Quote:
Originally Posted by inrenokid View Post
With the kill by raising the flop ...
This still makes no sense.
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