Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Omaha/8 Discussions of Omaha High-Low Split (Eight or Better) Poker.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-16-2010, 07:29 PM   #1
Buzz
gramps
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Los Angeles, California
Posts: 18,258
Post book containment thread

This will be a thread for discussion of Omaha-8 books. It will be referenced in the FAQ.

Buzz
Buzz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2010, 09:43 PM   #2
Omaha Chris
old hand
 
Omaha Chris's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Anywhere in poker but at the table
Posts: 1,233
Re: book containment thread

I guess I'll get it started.

IMO, nearly all of the books on the market are of extremely limited usefulness (and not just because poker books are inherently of limited usefulness).

Most "book" LO8 advice applies to a kind of game (loose and passive) that is virtually nonexistent anymore online. However, for low limit live games, a lot of it still works.

If nothing else, a beginner should read the books anyway because it's important to at least understand what *constitutes* ABC play, even if ABC play isn't an effective winning strategy online nowadays.

What I've said would apply to:
- Ken Warren's "Winner's Guide to Omaha 8"
- Mike Cappeletti's "How to Win at Omaha 8"
- Phil Hellmuth's Omaha 8 chapter in Play Poker Like the Pros
- Mark Gregorich's O8 chapter in Super System 2
- Tenner/Kriegers "Winning Omaha 8"
- Shane Smith's book

Ray Zee's book is probably the best of the O8 books, but it misses a lot of fundamentals that some of the other books cover, and is probably a little overrated (especially here at 2p2).

Things seem slightly better on the PLO front, but I haven't read those, except Farha on Omaha (weak, fluffy) and Cloutier's Championship Omaha (full of obsolete strategy).

Gave up on books as a useful tool a few years ago! To be honest, they really just held me back and kept my thinking rigid for a long time.

Best route is probably to come to an understanding of ABC play by reading the books, and gradually "unlearn" ABC through playing.
Omaha Chris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2010, 01:06 AM   #3
Buzz
gramps
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Los Angeles, California
Posts: 18,258
Re: book containment thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omaha Chris View Post
Best route is probably to come to an understanding of ABC play by reading the books, and gradually "unlearn" ABC through playing.
Perhaps.

I think it's important to not learn anything that's incorrect or misleading.

My standard recommendation to those who haven't played much Omaha-8 is twofold.
(1) - the second half (Omaha-8 half) of Ray Zee's book High Low Split Poker
(2) - Mark Gregorich's O8 chapter in Super System 2

Zee's book is the classic and, so far as I know, is error free. The O8 chapter in Super System 2 is also error free, so far as I know. Neither book is misleading.

You have to keep in mind that you need to adapt your game to your game venue, game type, game size and your opponents. The game is Omaha-8, but you still have to "play good poker" to be long term successful.

By "game venue" I mean on-line as opposed to brick-and-mortar casino or private home game. The play and player types you encounter, although overlapping to some extent are, in the main, substantially different. On-line you encounter some players who are multi-tabling. A normal individual could not tolerate folding starting hands in a brick-and-mortar casino game or private home game to the extent that some on-line players who are multi-tabling fold starting hands. And you'd stand out as a nit like a sore thumb if you played as tightly in a brick and mortar casino game as some on-line players.

By "game type" I mean fixed-limit, pot-limit, and no-limit. I believe the optimal way to play is different for all three types.

By "game size" I mean two things.
• First, although the stakes you play shouldn't, in theory, affect optimal play, in actual real life situations, they do. It's a lot easier to bluff when losing is going to sting your opponent than when you're playing for matchsticks or pennies.
• Second, the play at a ten handed table is enormously different than the play at a heads-up table. At a six-max table, very common on-line, but almost non-existent in a brick-and-mortar casino, there is not a big difference between what's good as a starting hand compared to a nine-handed table. (But the difference between on-line play and brick-and-mortar casino play is substantial).

And in any case, I believe how best to play depends on the specific opponent(s) you encounter.

If you read the two book sections I've recommended, and then get some experience, you'll know the game well enough to sort out what is helpful from what might be misleading in the other Omaha-8 books you see on bookshelves.

But be careful! I used to read Cappelletti and then go out and lose a few hundred bucks trying something that looked good in print, probably worked well for Mike and some others, but simply was a disaster for me. Even so, I think probably my own game has incorporated some of Mike's ideas (but modified to fit my own style of play and my own opponents).

Note that my style of play for Omaha-8 is quite different from my style of play for Texas hold 'em. And my style of play in a no-limit game is quite different than my style of play in a fixed-limit game. (Since I don't play much on-line, I only rarely encounter a pot-limit table).

In my humble opinion, if you are new to the game, the two books sections I have recommended will school you on the fundamentals of Omaha-8 play and then you have to "play good poker" to be successful.

Buzz
Buzz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2010, 04:11 AM   #4
guesswest
veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,998
Re: book containment thread

The problem is that LO8 and PLO8/NLO8 are fundamentally different games, it's an even bigger divide than NLHE/LHE, and there is nothing even halfway decent on the market with regards to big bet 08 (possibly campfirewest's book is the exception, it's the only one I haven't gotten around to reading yet so I can't comment).

In the case of Zee/Supersystem etc it's not that those books contain errors or that the authors don't know their stuff, it's just that they are LO8 books and fewer and fewer people are interested in limit games. The content might have limited use for a complete beginner just in terms of getting a sense of basic hand ranking / probability stuff, but you could read pretty much everything on the market cover to cover and not have the first idea how to beat big bet 08, which is what most people are trying to learn.
guesswest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2010, 09:41 AM   #5
omaha8shaun
old hand
 
omaha8shaun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,247
Re: book containment thread

They say what is wrong with poker books is that by the time they hit the shelf for purchase the strategy in them has become outdated...another problem is that books usually focus on live omaha hilow which is usually played in the limit form yet the people who buy the books are online players who are playing all forms of OM8

online training sites are where the knowledge is...and for omaha hilow limit or pot limit strategy stoxpoker is the best out there right now.They have good coaches who cover cash game, sit n go, and MTT strategy for limit, NL, and PL omaha hi/low...no book out there is as diverse as a training site like stox
omaha8shaun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2010, 12:28 PM   #6
plaaynde
Poker Historian
 
plaaynde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Local Group
Posts: 14,842
Re: book containment thread

Hi!
Scanned through the Books and Publications forum about half a year back. Some, in my opinion, interesting threads:

/omaha-8-book-winning-omaha-lou-krieger-anyone-read-665994/

/omaha-hi-lo-micro-limits-571194/

/taking-notes-while-reading-636689/

/training-videos-books-601436/

/whats-life-span-poker-book-577198/

/why-do-study-groups-come-here-die-679391/

Last edited by plaaynde; 03-17-2010 at 12:38 PM.
plaaynde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2010, 10:39 PM   #8
strk
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 93
Dan Deppen's book

I'll chime in for PLO8... campfirewest / Dan Deppen's book, Pot Limit Omaha 8 Revealed is essential if you've never played big-bet O8. If you are close to break-even i'd still buy it, but the argument is less strong.

It's only 181 pages long, and it's geared to complete novices (if you've read it, think Sklansky's Hold 'Em Poker rather than the FAP series). It is my opinion that some of the advice is just 100% correct; most is very good to decent given current small-stakes games (but much of that shouldn't theoretically be good advice if current play weren't so terribad); and some is questionable.

What makes me say the book is "essential" for complete novices is that you will easily cost yourself multiple times the cost of the book if you attempt to play big-bet O8 without a decent grounding in at least what to think about, and this book does give you at least the basics of that.

If you are a decent winner over a decent sample, I very much doubt you'll find much interesting in this book.

This really isn't intended to be a negative review, or a positive one. "Highly polarized," maybe. I'm glad I bought it though.

Breakdown:
20% of the book will remain good advice regardless: I'm relatively certain it's simply theoretically correct
60% of the book is good or OK advice right now, but I'm willing to bet that in 5 years won't apply, as the correctness of the advice is predicated on the donktasticness of the average opponent
10% of the book I was pretty sure was just bad (but nothing gross-bad)
10% of the book I don't feel confident enough to comment on
note: these numbers obviously aren't scientific. they're what i pulled out of my ass after reading through the book twice a few months ago.

Summary: If you've never played before, it will easily save you 10, maybe even 20 buyins while you would have worked this stuff out for yourself. buy it. If you know what you're doing, you won't find anything new, interesting or challenging in it at all.

boilerplate: I came from a NLHE background, and have only played ~2k hands of fixed limit O8, so if you're a LO8 star, never having played PLO8 making the transition, i can't say at all whether it would be worth it. I'd guess yes.
strk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2010, 12:13 AM   #9
strk
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 93
Re: Dan Deppen's book

After rereading my own review of Dan Deppen's book, it still sounds more negative than I had hoped. I can't edit it any more, but i just wanted to add that if you apply the advice he gives in the book, i *certainly* think you will show a decent profit at least at 0.5/1 PLO8 and below.
strk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2010, 09:42 AM   #12
What_is_7x6
newbie
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 47
Re: book containment thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzz View Post
I think it's important to not learn anything that's incorrect or misleading.
Im going to have to disagree with you there Buzz. Its important to learn everything you can, and understand the difference between correct information and incorrect information. That allows you to understand how your opponents are thinking, and it gives you an edge in anticipating how they would react to various strategies. If you do not learn how to think like them, even if their logic is flawed, your ability to play against them is limited.

42
What_is_7x6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2010, 02:35 PM   #13
Buzz
gramps
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Los Angeles, California
Posts: 18,258
Re: book containment thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by What_is_7x6 View Post
Im going to have to disagree with you there Buzz. Its important to learn everything you can, and understand the difference between correct information and incorrect information. That allows you to understand how your opponents are thinking, and it gives you an edge in anticipating how they would react to various strategies. If you do not learn how to think like them, even if their logic is flawed, your ability to play against them is limited.

42
Assuming one understands the difference between what is correct information and what is incorrect information, I agree.

But if one doesn't know the difference, the problem in learning something wrong is that it will seem right.

Indeed the person disseminating the incorrect information (the author of the book) must believe it to be true.

Buzz
Buzz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2010, 06:55 PM   #14
appelonius
centurion
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 173
Re: book containment thread

I became a winning plo8 player after i read the first half of harrington on hold'em part 1 (what reminds me that i really should read the rest of it)
appelonius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2010, 07:47 PM   #15
plaaynde
Poker Historian
 
plaaynde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Local Group
Posts: 14,842
Re: book containment thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by appelonius View Post
I became a winning plo8 player after i read the first half of harrington on hold'em part 1 (what reminds me that i really should read the rest of it)
There are many ways...
plaaynde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2010, 02:17 AM   #16
plaaynde
Poker Historian
 
plaaynde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Local Group
Posts: 14,842
Re: book containment thread

Bump.

Which are the best ways of learning more about O8? That of course varies from time to time and from person to person. I have a problem of never reading a single O8 book from cover to cover (not even the SSII part ). I simply become overwhelmed by the information, taking every sentence with maybe too big seriousness. I more have tried to extract the information that I feel is important from different sources and a bit stubbornly, tried to figure out things by my self.

I feel itīs time to give myself a bick kick in the behind. Letīs continue on the fragmented informationsī path for now, but still with some pedagogic touch. Iīll join CR to day. The few LO8 videos may make a difference?
plaaynde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2010, 05:14 AM   #17
Buzz
gramps
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Los Angeles, California
Posts: 18,258
Re: book containment thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by plaaynde View Post
Bump.

Which are the best ways of learning more about O8?
I believe some ways of learning suit some individuals best and other ways of learning suit other individuals best. People learn in different ways.
• observing.
• playing.
• getting coaching.
• reading and studying books.
• reading and studying articles.
• reading and responding to posts.
• posting hand histories to get feedback, insights, and different perspectives.
• watching videos.

Quote:
That of course varies from time to time and from person to person.
I don't know about time to time, but some ways of learning are better suited to some individuals than others.

Quote:
I have a problem of never reading a single O8 book from cover to cover (not even the SSII part ). I simply become overwhelmed by the information, taking every sentence with maybe too big seriousness.
People have different ways for coping with material that is difficult for them to read. One approach is to simply copy down, in a notebook, any sentence you do not understand. (That's not an approach I'd use, but then I had no difficulty reading the SSII part, or indeed any book or article about O8).

Quote:
I more have tried to extract the information that I feel is important from different sources and a bit stubbornly, tried to figure out things by my self.
I can relate to figuring out things for yourself.

Quote:
I feel itīs time to give myself a bick kick in the behind. Letīs continue on the fragmented informationsī path for now, but still with some pedagogic touch. Iīll join CR to day. The few LO8 videos may make a difference?
I have no idea. Let us know. Good luck.

Buzz

Last edited by Buzz; 07-25-2010 at 05:25 AM.
Buzz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2010, 08:11 AM   #18
TxRedMan
O8Blessed
 
TxRedMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: With my much better half
Posts: 6,259
Re: book containment thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omaha Chris View Post
I guess I'll get it started.


- Mark Gregorich's O8 chapter in Super System 2
.
no offense to zee, but i'm just using occam's razor here.
TxRedMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2010, 08:20 AM   #19
TxRedMan
O8Blessed
 
TxRedMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: With my much better half
Posts: 6,259
Re: book containment thread

I'd say about 10 posters in this forum could collaborate to write a book with the help of an editor and it would be the bees knees of LO8/PLO8/NLO8 and would put everything else to shame (in a broad sense of the word, due to the detail, mostly, since most books are **** and most sections are good but much too short). I've been writing on O8 (my own personal endeavor) and one of the thing that would suck about this idea is that it would immediately make competent poker players not fish when they played and would kill the learning curve...especially in NLO8. But I think it would still be a good idea for other reasons.
TxRedMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2010, 01:28 PM   #20
Holliday
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Holliday's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Forum Withdrawal's world
Posts: 14,755
Re: book containment thread

Mainly a PLO8 player and I think Hwang's "Pot Limit Omaha" is an excellent place to start. Despite the book's title, there are chapters covering OE and plo8 very well and building on the earlier plo concepts. I would label it as beginner-intermediate nuts-and-bolts kid of stuff, but very, very good at what it does. Also it is advantageous to be able to play PLO before tackling PLO8, IMO.

I read and appreciated Zee's book after this one, and I've always been glad I did it in that sequence. Zee is assuming you already know the big wraps work, and how to count your nut outs, and how to board/hand read well enough, etc. His focus is on approach and adapting your play to the game you are in. I hear it called "over rated" but mostly it seems to get criticized for what it is not; "The stuff he talks about is live games and it's not big bet." which I translate to "This book FAILS to be about other subjects altogether!"
Holliday is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2011, 07:41 AM   #21
bakyka
adept
 
bakyka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 866
Ray Zee: High-Low-Split Poker for Advanced Players

I am thinking about buying this book:

Ray Zee: High-Low-Split Poker, Seven-Card Stud and Omaha Eight-or-better for Advanced Players

I belive many of you have read it.

Is it worth the money? Is it useful in these days?
bakyka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2011, 08:13 AM   #22
cbt
veteran
 
cbt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Hell
Posts: 2,963
Re: Ray Zee: High-Low-Split Poker for Advanced Players

it's one of the better ones. however i don't find any book useful for online play tbh.
cbt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2011, 08:20 AM   #23
SpeedLimiter
veteran
 
SpeedLimiter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,077
Re: Ray Zee: High-Low-Split Poker for Advanced Players

Yes. It's a good book for all of your fundamentals, the only O8 book i've ever read cover to cover.
Note that it is focused primarilly on limit O8, so some alterations might be needed if you play PL/NL, but the general priciples discussed are still relevent.

I think you could consider it a sound investment.
SpeedLimiter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2011, 08:33 AM   #24
plaaynde
Poker Historian
 
plaaynde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Local Group
Posts: 14,842
Re: Ray Zee: High-Low-Split Poker for Advanced Players

Quote:
Originally Posted by bakyka View Post
Is it useful in these days?
Yes. I'm getting into books more right now, and this one will be on the list, probably forever. I play limit O8 though.

Last edited by plaaynde; 03-31-2011 at 08:44 AM.
plaaynde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2011, 09:00 AM   #25
SuitedBaby
grinder
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: North Coast
Posts: 670
Re: Ray Zee: High-Low-Split Poker for Advanced Players

Quote:
Originally Posted by bakyka View Post
Is it worth the money? Is it useful in these days?
This book unquestionably worth the money. You get 2 books on 2 games in one and the advice rendered is pretty much unquestionably correct for the games it was written for.

However that is a little bit of a problem since the book probably is directed at 10-20 to 40-80 live Stud8 and Omaha8 games. Online games are a much different story, especially at limits unheard of in the day Ray Zee was writing this book.

Pay attention to the basics discussed and adjust for the play of the opponents you are facing. You must adjust or not only will you not get the most out of the book but it may hurt your game.
SuitedBaby is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:22 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v2.0.33 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright Đ 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online