I'm in search of some type of point system/starting hands chart for general guidelines on 5 card High-Low starting hands. Does anybody know if such a thing exists already?

Thx

Tony

I don't think one does. At least I have never seen one. There's a reference (link) to Hutchison's 4-card point count system in the FAQ. Hutchison's system is a tight system that probably saves money for live casino players who play too loosely.

Years ago, I learned and briefly tried his system for four card Omaha-8. (I tried a lot of stuff... LOL).

Although designed for four-card Omaha-8, Hutchison's system might not work too badly for five-card Omaha-8. With the extra card, you'd find more hands meeting Hutchison's requirements for a playable hand.

Just an idea that might help you. I haven't tried Hutchison's system for five-card Omaha-8.

Buzz

What if I started with the point count on casinogambling.about.com for 4 card High-Low (which seems to be pretty accurate with Bill Boston's table) and then using emprical data by playing out a few hundred hands in the 5 card version (manual simulation)...then I would check to see what percentage of Bill Boston's 4 card sim was winning (I think it was around 15%), then find out what point count value for the 5 card version is better than 85%. Of course, the problem with me doing this is a) hand values change in the 5 card version and b) the system was designed for limit. But it's a start? If we come up with a good point system, we'll be ahead of the curve in this game that seems to be just becoming popular like DONs once were. Any thoughts anyone?

Do you mean Ed Hutchison's table?

Buzz

No, Bill Boston has a table at the back of his low limit book giving the $ value of each of the 5,000+ possible 4 card hands. I was trying to say that the casinogambling.about.com point count is very accurate given how simple it is.

There's a free video on DeucesCracked at the moment on 5 card O8 starting hands. Worth a quick view.

Thx for the info. Please anyone post any other links you know of.

Going through ProPokerTools charts (at the bottom of this help page, ranking a certain hand or range is also available on the simulation page) might help (though it's far from accounting for postflop playability properly, neither are Hutchison-like systems). I'm aware of nothing better so far

Purchase
"PLO quick pro" partially by ben lamb.
No 5 card but fantastic PLO theory

Thank you for both of those resources. I was aware of propokertools and had been using that a little. I was not aware of PLO Quick Pro...it looks really good and I will check more into it. Right now I'm using the 4 card point count on about.com and have expanded it to 5 card. The method I used was to first find out that the point count is over 95% accurate with Bill Boston's tabulated results in his book for 4 card limit High-Low. Then I found which percentage of hands were +EV for 4 card and found at what point the 5 card had the same % of hands dealt that are +EV for the 4 card. In the 4 card game, you need at least 25 points to play (9 players). In the 5 card game, this would change to 31 points (8 players because you can't have 9). I did some estimating, etc. but it seems reasonably accurate to have the following:

First, this is the point count from about.com:
For Low:
A-2 = 20 points
A-3 = 15 points
A-4, 2-3 = 10 points
A-5, 2-4, 2-5, 3-4, 3-5, 4-5 = 5 points
Pairs:
Aces = 30
All other pairs equal their face value (jacks = 11, fives = 5, etc.)

Flushes:
Two card flushes count as 10 points with an ace. All others count as 4 points. Having three or four of the same suit in your hand cuts these values in half.

Straights:
Two card straight with no gap or one gap counts as two points. (8-9, 8-T, etc.)
.
High Cards:
Unpaired Ace = Unpaired King = 2

This is what I came up with then:



Four Card Omaha High-Low Point Count
10 players – 26
9 players – 25
8 players – 24
7 players – 22
6 players – 19
5 players – 16

Five Card Omaha High-Low Point Count
8 players – 31
7 players – 30
6 players – 28
5 players - 25

Of course, because hand values change in the 5 card game, this could be off base...I'd have to do the simulations/get empirical results from playing in order to see if the 5 card point count is just as accurate as the 4 card point count. But I think this is a great starting point...I plan on playing live in 5 card PLO High-Low in the near future, I want to just be patient and use the point count (Adjusting it a little for position also) and see how I do just by playing tight.

Please keep us all updated on any info you find on this game that may grow quickly in popularity.

Thx,

Tony

So what is the best starting hand in 5 card o8? Anyone know?

Who is the most powerful necromancer of this forum? Anyone know?

Lol

some good sources I prefer to keep secret told me 310JJJ

Gotta be AA234, right?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Gotta be AA234, right?


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AA23 ds is as most know the best starting hand for 4 cartes O8 .

On paper , i know more then one player who prefers to play a A23K ds or A24K ( def in a multiway pot )

If you ask me without to consult hatchinson & co i prefer AA23K ds then AA234 ds

Yeah I was thinking AA23Kds. I'll put it in the calculator now

Looks like AA23K has slightly better equity than AA234. Is there any other monster hands anyone can think of that I could calculate against AA23K?

Here ya go. Hopefully it helps you get on the right track and see that o8 is a freaking weird game

ProPokerTools 5-Card Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

850,668 trials (Exhaustive)

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
AcAd2s3d3c	50.07%	109,929	216,408	430,964	0	376,504
AhAs2d3hKs	49.93%	120,785	203,296	430,964	0	376,504

ProPokerTools 5-Card Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

850,668 trials (Exhaustive)

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
AcAd2s3d3c	50.24%	111,692	212,745	428,185	0	338,560
AhAs2d3h4s	49.76%	98,678	209,738	428,185	12,440	338,560

ProPokerTools 5-Card Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

850,668 trials (Exhaustive)

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
AcAd2s3dKc	50.44%	132,379	229,752	390,967	0	366,648
AhAs2d3h4s	49.56%	101,804	229,949	390,967	24,016	366,648

The 33 hand is slightly best overall, but the K hand has a bit bigger advantage over the 34 hand. There are other hands but it gets exponentially more complicated the more hands you add in. (A2)(A4)2 is another hand that performs well against other monster hands also, same with AA23ds with a 5 or 6 suited to one of the aces. But it gets really messy when you start trying to see which of all those hands is truly better against realistic ranges. # of players going to showdown has a big effect too.

Edit - Point systems are useful for getting a good idea of decent starting hand ranges in the beginning, but try not to get overly dependent on them. They have their limitations, but an edit to them helped a bit by better estimating the value of connectors...which was sorely lacking in the first point system iirc. Mainly for cards 6-K since the wheel cards were already kinda included in the low points.

how does AA233 have the edge over AA234 vs AA23k?

A rough way of putting it is 33>K3>34 for the hi. The 34 has a little extra lo and straight potential but not enough to overcome the pair of 3's higher chance of scooping or 3/4...or even the K3 hand. Also the AK has a lil broadway potential, but again not quite enough to outweigh the 3's strength in getting 3/4 of more pots where a lo qualifies.

Might not be totally accurate, got tables going while writing this.