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Old 04-24-2017, 10:54 PM   #1
THE_BEAVER
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40-80 lo8. Back 4 bet. 3 way aces up on all high flop

Saw a buddy play this hand. 8 handed 40-80 lo8. Villains seem decent but no big reads. Utg limps. Folded to hero in hijack who raises Ad7dAs6s. CO three bets. Folded back to utg who caps. Kc9h9s. UTG checks, hero checks, co bets. Utg folds. Hero calls.

Turn- 4c. Hero checks, co bets, hero calls.

River-q spades. Hero checks

Thoughts on all streets welcome
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Old 04-25-2017, 12:07 AM   #2
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Re: 40-80 lo8. Back 4 bet. 3 way aces up on all high flop

What part of the hand are you questioning? Without any reads, it looks like a pretty straightforward call down to me. I would expect to be good somewhat more than half the time, but it probably makes more sense to let the villain continue his bluffs than to raise for value essentially targetting exactly AK.
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Old 04-25-2017, 12:48 AM   #3
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Re: 40-80 lo8. Back 4 bet. 3 way aces up on all high flop

I prefer betting the flop, with no reads on co its hard to give the best line, sometimes c/r the turn or c/f the river as played can be best.. check calling down is pretty weak

Against many opponents folding river can be ok, but if we have someone overplaying ak or chopping with another aa we have to call, q is a bad card though as some hands we we ahead of hit the straight
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Old 04-25-2017, 10:08 AM   #4
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Re: 40-80 lo8. Back 4 bet. 3 way aces up on all high flop

Wp.
It's fine, though could consider check raising turn. Don't lead the flop. And definitely don't just check-fold the river.
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Old 04-25-2017, 10:46 AM   #5
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Re: 40-80 lo8. Back 4 bet. 3 way aces up on all high flop

If you bet the flop on this texture you pretty much force the other dude to have a hand. You make him fold worse except maybe Kxxx if he is very stubborn and keep in better.

Check every street and let the guy barrel off, keep his range as wide open as possible. It's a super safe board for aces.

Arguably your hand is face up doing that, but there's some levelling which can go on like, he knows that you know that, and he is still betting to try to get you to think he is strong because he knows that you know that he knows

If he got there, he got there, but on this texture the guy will just have to show you a better hand, no way you can fold this board in a large HU pot.

Last edited by LUCIUS VARENUS; 04-25-2017 at 10:52 AM.
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Old 04-25-2017, 02:21 PM   #6
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Re: 40-80 lo8. Back 4 bet. 3 way aces up on all high flop

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Wp.
It's fine, though could consider check raising turn. Don't lead the flop. And definitely don't just check-fold the river.
What is "wp"?
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Old 04-25-2017, 02:58 PM   #7
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Re: 40-80 lo8. Back 4 bet. 3 way aces up on all high flop

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What is "wp"?
Well played.

And dear god do NOT check-fold the river.
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Old 04-25-2017, 08:06 PM   #8
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Re: 40-80 lo8. Back 4 bet. 3 way aces up on all high flop

On the turn I'm torn between a lead and a ch/r.
As played I also prefer leading the river.
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Old 04-25-2017, 08:16 PM   #9
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Re: 40-80 lo8. Back 4 bet. 3 way aces up on all high flop

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On the turn I'm torn between a lead and a ch/r.
As played I also prefer leading the river.
Wat. And what?
Why are you leading this turn? Imo you shouldn't. It doesn't change anything. Like what other hands are you leading this turn with?
And why are you leading river with this hand?
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Old 04-25-2017, 11:04 PM   #10
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Re: 40-80 lo8. Back 4 bet. 3 way aces up on all high flop

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If you bet the flop on this texture you pretty much force the other dude to have a hand. You make him fold worse except maybe Kxxx
Isn't it ok if they fold worse? 7.75 bets in pot. I'm pretty happy if I bet scoop. We don't know guy behind us is betting and I don't like the idea of letting back doors draw for free. Not to mention we might want to bet this flop when we have A268 type hands.
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Old 04-26-2017, 01:42 AM   #11
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Re: 40-80 lo8. Back 4 bet. 3 way aces up on all high flop

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Wat. And what?
Why are you leading this turn? Imo you shouldn't. It doesn't change anything. Like what other hands are you leading this turn with?
And why are you leading river with this hand?
So that a bet goes in. Like I said I"m undecided about the turn - I'm afraid he won't 2-barrel often enough on this texture since we're not really ch/c flop and ch/f turn.
The river he has a great chance to check back showdown value and I don't want to let him do it.
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Old 04-26-2017, 01:46 AM   #12
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Re: 40-80 lo8. Back 4 bet. 3 way aces up on all high flop

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Isn't it ok if they fold worse? 7.75 bets in pot. I'm pretty happy if I bet scoop. We don't know guy behind us is betting and I don't like the idea of letting back doors draw for free. Not to mention we might want to bet this flop when we have A268 type hands.
Correct, There is nothing wrong with value betting in a multiway pot with a vulnerable hi hand. O8 isn't really the game where you see a lot of players barreling 3 streets with weak hands after its capped pre (especially on this texture). While co might bet the flop wide if checked to in this spot, these hands should still have tangible equity. I should note that given pre-flop hero should have the widest range. Since that is the case betting the flop can present a lot of challenges for our opponents and create more useful information than checking.
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Old 04-26-2017, 06:46 AM   #13
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Re: 40-80 lo8. Back 4 bet. 3 way aces up on all high flop

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Wp.
It's fine, though could consider check raising turn. Don't lead the flop. And definitely don't just check-fold the river.
Yup. People really want to just c/f here? I mean, I guess if co is on the tighter side....
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Old 04-26-2017, 10:08 AM   #14
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Re: 40-80 lo8. Back 4 bet. 3 way aces up on all high flop

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Isn't it ok if they fold worse? 7.75 bets in pot. I'm pretty happy if I bet scoop. We don't know guy behind us is betting and I don't like the idea of letting back doors draw for free. Not to mention we might want to bet this flop when we have A268 type hands.
If a draw opens up after flop checks through, you can bet then.

There's no real draw on K99r except gutshots.

It's a way ahead/way behind situation.
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Old 04-26-2017, 10:42 AM   #15
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Re: 40-80 lo8. Back 4 bet. 3 way aces up on all high flop

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Correct, There is nothing wrong with value betting in a multiway pot with a vulnerable hi hand. O8 isn't really the game where you see a lot of players barreling 3 streets with weak hands after its capped pre (especially on this texture). While co might bet the flop wide if checked to in this spot, these hands should still have tangible equity. I should note that given pre-flop hero should have the widest range. Since that is the case betting the flop can present a lot of challenges for our opponents and create more useful information than checking.
Fyi if you play this transparently, you would get smashed vs anyone good.
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Old 04-26-2017, 10:50 AM   #16
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Re: 40-80 lo8. Back 4 bet. 3 way aces up on all high flop

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Correct, There is nothing wrong with value betting in a multiway pot with a vulnerable hi hand.
In O8, most high hands are vulnerable. But this seems like an exception to me. The only hand you are currently beating but fairly vulnerable to (to the extent you would prefer a fold getting 7-to-1) is exactly QJT.

And I don't even think that given the action your opponent is that likely to have a hand with medium showdown value. How many hands with weak kings or pairs under KK are three-betting preflop? I think your opponent most likely will either (a) have a hand that beats you, which will raise if you bet turn; (b) have AA, which doesn't matter (unless you somehow fold); (c) have AK, which will probably keep betting turn; or (d) have almost total air, which might keep bluffing but will fold to a bet.

I don't see how betting the turn benefits you in any of those scenarios.
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Old 04-26-2017, 11:22 AM   #17
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Re: 40-80 lo8. Back 4 bet. 3 way aces up on all high flop

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And I don't even think that given the action your opponent is that likely to have a hand with medium showdown value.
So, given this analysis and under these preflop circumstances would you say hero should bet any semibluff and any hand that completely missed this flop? Should he not have a flop value bet in his range?
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Old 04-26-2017, 03:50 PM   #18
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Re: 40-80 lo8. Back 4 bet. 3 way aces up on all high flop

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Fyi if you play this transparently, you would get smashed vs anyone good.

How is betting the flop transparent?
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Old 04-26-2017, 07:52 PM   #19
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Re: 40-80 lo8. Back 4 bet. 3 way aces up on all high flop

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So, given this analysis and under these preflop circumstances would you say hero should bet any semibluff and any hand that completely missed this flop? Should he not have a flop value bet in his range?
I'm not sure I would ever bet the flop in this exact circumstance. That said, this particular scenario is pretty unusual, so I wouldn't be that concerned with having a balanced range.
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Old 04-27-2017, 01:34 AM   #20
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Re: 40-80 lo8. Back 4 bet. 3 way aces up on all high flop

I'd bet the flop and keep betting till raised and then I'd call down. This is not a bad alternative assuming you called the river. Although if I did chk the flop I'd be tempted to chk raise and bet down and get paid by a lot of top pairish hands. At this limit players are capable of taking shots at boards like this and payoffs and value bets can be quite light.
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Old 04-27-2017, 10:28 AM   #21
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Re: 40-80 lo8. Back 4 bet. 3 way aces up on all high flop

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I'm not sure I would ever bet the flop in this exact circumstance. That said, this particular scenario is pretty unusual, so I wouldn't be that concerned with having a balanced range.
Why not? If you "don't even think that given the action your opponent is that likely to have a hand with medium showdown value" shouldn't you bluff quite a bit? Or did you mean you would never value bet this flop in this exact circumstance? By the way, you're right this exact situation won't come up but heavy preflop action followed by a dry board definitely comes up enough to warrant discussion, especially cuz the pot's big and you might not need much to win it..
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Old 04-27-2017, 10:42 AM   #22
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Re: 40-80 lo8. Back 4 bet. 3 way aces up on all high flop

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Why not? If you "don't even think that given the action your opponent is that likely to have a hand with medium showdown value" shouldn't you bluff quite a bit? Or did you mean you would never value bet this flop in this exact circumstance? By the way, you're right this exact situation won't come up but heavy preflop action followed by a dry board definitely comes up enough to warrant discussion, especially cuz the pot's big and you might not need much to win it..
I would certainly bluff reasonably often in this situation, but I don't think I would do so by just betting out on the flop.
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Old 04-27-2017, 07:41 PM   #23
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Re: 40-80 lo8. Back 4 bet. 3 way aces up on all high flop

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I would certainly bluff reasonably often in this situation, but I don't think I would do so by just betting out on the flop.
Waiting for the turn lets your opponents pick up pairs and back door draws
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Old 04-28-2017, 10:22 AM   #24
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Re: 40-80 lo8. Back 4 bet. 3 way aces up on all high flop

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Waiting for the turn lets your opponents pick up pairs and back door draws
Pairs don't beat your hand and would need to trip up on the river to win, so that's fine, and it's typically incorrect for them to draw at straights and flushes on a paired board.
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Old 04-28-2017, 10:35 AM   #25
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Re: 40-80 lo8. Back 4 bet. 3 way aces up on all high flop

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Waiting for the turn lets your opponents pick up pairs and back door draws
Maybe I'm just overly suspicious of the guy who capped preflop and then checked the flop. This board shouldn't really hit anyone's range, so why wouldn't he keep betting? As it turns out, he's just check/folding, but we don't know that. I'd be inclined to raise the flop if he bet (with both value hand and bluffs), but just check everything when he checks.
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