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04-18-2016 , 09:50 AM
I am UTG with AAKT82 (I have ~£500). I cover almost everybody at the table except player to my left and another player who is in the CO.

I am up ~£400 (sat with a hundred to begin with) and haven't lost many pots at all. I have only raised preflop quite rarely.

We are getting towards the end of the session. Everybody been here about 5-6hrs or so.

I find 2 blues (£2) on top of my 20-chip stacks and some reds so I put that in the pot with a red (raise to £7).

Called in 3 spots, CO, BTN and OffBlind (OB) player. Remember the BTN and SB position post the blinds (called On/Off) and I call the SB "OB".
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#Quick player profile#
*CO is an Asian doctor (Indian origin I think), maybe early 50s. Doesn't bluff, plays semi-tight preflop and has the goods if going to showdown. Has already lost a few stacks but has rebought and sits with £450 or so. A regular in the game.

*BTN is middle eastern guy, early 50s, plays very loose passive, not a bluffer, easily one of the marks in the game. I wouldn't check to him if I had any sort of value hand. Has lost a lot of stacks, sitting quite short with less than £100. A regular.

*OB is origin unknown male, foreign accent, I wanna say early 40s, seems fairly clued up postflop compared with the field and plays semi-loose pre. Plays now and again. Sat with £400 I think. Seems to pride himself on the correct plays and hasn't really put much of a foot wrong yet. Winning in the game.
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Flop:

Q-T-9 (£28)

I have AA, gutshot to a J, pair of tens, and nut flush draw.

OB checks, I bet pot, £28.

CO and BTN fold, OB calls.

Not sure if should bet this in 6 card and would hate getting raised but I think I can maybe make 2 pair fold and I need to build the pot so I can get more value later if I hit my hand.

Turn:

Q-T-9-A (£84)

I now have top set aces and nut flush draw and gutshot.

OB checks, I check.

I think he might have a straight and don't fancy getting checkraised. Obviously I have a big draw so I want to take a free card and get there. If he doesn't have it I might be able to get value if the board doesn't change on the river. I think I underrep my hand by checking so it might extract some money later.

River:

Q-T-9-A-4 (£84)

OB checks, I grab two black £25s and fling in £50. I did similar before when I was bluffing and showed it.

OB does not raise I'll tell you the rest later.

Hand well played? Particularly interested in thoughts on river sizing, whether to bet flop and whether to bet turn (if so how much).

Last edited by LUCIUS VARENUS; 04-18-2016 at 09:57 AM.
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04-18-2016 , 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by LUCIUS VARENUS
Flop:

Q-T-9 (£28)

I have AA, gutshot to a J, pair of tens, and nut flush draw.

OB checks, I bet pot, £28.

CO and BTN fold, OB calls.
Pot bet seems a bit excessive, but I suppose this is game specific. Haven't run the equities myself but I'd imagine we're actually ahead of 2 pair hands. By betting so large, you're probably folding out a lot of the weak drawing and made hands that we want to stick around, and made straight are clearly jamming it in our face. I'd bet around £20, but if it's the kind of game where betting Pot or £20 isn't making any difference to players' decisions anyway then go ahead and get max value.

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Originally Posted by LUCIUS VARENUS
Turn:

Q-T-9-A (£84)

I now have top set aces and nut flush draw and gutshot.

OB checks, I check.
Doubt he has a straight. Vast majority of KJ hands are raising the flop bet, maybe J8 calls the flop but may fold to continued pressure on the turn. Only hand that could possibly flat that has us beat is KJhh which we also have a ton of blockers to so I'd be pretty confident we're ahead here. Bet £60.

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Originally Posted by LUCIUS VARENUS
River:

Q-T-9-A-4 (£84)

OB checks, I grab two black £25s and fling in £50. I did similar before when I was bluffing and showed it.
.
Brick city. Value bet. As played £50 is fine, could maybe go a little bigger.
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04-18-2016 , 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by LUCIUS VARENUS
...and I need to build the pot so I can get more value later if I hit my hand.
I don't understand this when you then checked the turn after your equity went up. Seems like the best time to get value to me.

I'm not crazy about a flop bet in 6-card. Would have definitely bet the turn as Grim said. I'd keep the river bet smallish as you did but I don't really see how anything worse can call you. I would check/call J8 here for sure.
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04-18-2016 , 02:16 PM
I think flop bet is bad, especially the big sizing. Your hand is just too weak with no relevant blockers.

I think turn is a clear bet to put pressure on 2nd nut straight and to get value from smaller sets.

River is ok, although you end up value owning yourself vs 2nd nuts (he should be betting that often though, but not all players do that). Depends quite a lot on your image what you get called with.
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04-19-2016 , 08:40 AM
1) Regarding flop sizing:

Does it matter that I have always potted the flop when I bet the flop in previous hands that they have seen?

If i always bet the same amount, doesn't it make it harder for them to read my hand strength?

FWIW I did think maybe I want to bet a bit less (£20) to control the pot size and decrease the amount they can raise to if they do raise but I bet the full amount for balance. I tend to have a (mistaken?) line of thought that if I have a draw I would prefer they folded.

In this game dynamic not a lot of folding happens. To make it perfectly clear, many of the players are gifting the money regardless of what you bet. Does that change your POV?

2) I didn't think about trying to get him off J8, but mainly because I don't think he will fold it. How much would you suggest betting?

Did my equity go up or did it in fact remain the same vs a straight? If it went up a lot then I suppose I am against a set. Would I get more action from a set if I bet the turn or if I check the turn and the board pairs on the river?

Help me think about the game more accurately, seems I might have inconsistent thoughts.

3) Regarding river value bet:

I think bet because I checked turn. He is going to think if this guy had the straight is he ever checking the turn behind in position when there is a flush draw there? Then he is going to think no, therefore a set or maybe even two pair is good here.

I got a river call because I checked the turn, whereas if I bet the turn he doesn't call river with anything less than a straight. Question is, which line makes more money?
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04-19-2016 , 09:44 AM
OK, potting the flop is not horrible (you even have one K, I think I missed it the first time), but you really don't like to get raised here. Also, your range doesn't hit this flop better than villains' range, so I'd seriously consider checking with the intention of calling a bet. All this since this a 6-card game and it's pretty likely there are hands out there that will continue, and all these hands have good equity against your hand and you will mostly be OOP.

My standard sizing on the turn would be roughly 3/4 of the pot, so say £60. It's very good to bet the turn with this hand, as it's not a disaster if you get raised (presumably by a straight) since you can call and you get that extra bet on the river (=implied odds) if you hit your monster draw. I think it's actually pretty good for you if someone announces that he has the nut straight now. There is also the possibility of villain continuing with a hand that is drawing very thin (smaller set + smaller fd).

Sure, you are right, you can get called by something weak on the river if you play it like that. Still, betting the turn is imo better for the reasons that have already been presented. You know, also his range remains uncapped even after the river check, so there is a risk of you getting check-raised as a value or as a bluff after you cap your range on the turn.
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04-19-2016 , 09:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LUCIUS VARENUS
1) Regarding flop sizing:

Does it matter that I have always potted the flop when I bet the flop in previous hands that they have seen?

If i always bet the same amount, doesn't it make it harder for them to read my hand strength?

FWIW I did think maybe I want to bet a bit less (£20) to control the pot size and decrease the amount they can raise to if they do raise but I bet the full amount for balance. I tend to have a (mistaken?) line of thought that if I have a draw I would prefer they folded.

In this game dynamic not a lot of folding happens. To make it perfectly clear, many of the players are gifting the money regardless of what you bet. Does that change your POV?
I get what you're saying about betting the same for balance, but it doesn't sound like they would even notice whether you bet the same or not. They're calling no matter what, so why build a big pot?

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Originally Posted by LUCIUS VARENUS
2) I didn't think about trying to get him off J8, but mainly because I don't think he will fold it. How much would you suggest betting?

Did my equity go up or did it in fact remain the same vs a straight? If it went up a lot then I suppose I am against a set. Would I get more action from a set if I bet the turn or if I check the turn and the board pairs on the river?

Help me think about the game more accurately, seems I might have inconsistent thoughts.
I'd bet 2/3 pot, so I like Grim's £60 bet. As long as your read is that they are never folding, I don't think you need to worry about checking to induce action when the board pairs on the river. Your hand looks like a lot of things other than top set so get some value now.

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Originally Posted by LUCIUS VARENUS
3) Regarding river value bet:

I think bet because I checked turn. He is going to think if this guy had the straight is he ever checking the turn behind in position when there is a flush draw there? Then he is going to think no, therefore a set or maybe even two pair is good here.

I got a river call because I checked the turn, whereas if I bet the turn he doesn't call river with anything less than a straight. Question is, which line makes more money?
If you bet £60 on the turn and he doesn't call river, you would have made more than the £50 you made on the river when you checked turn and he called river because of it. So if that's your line of thinking, then bet more on the river like Grim said.
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04-19-2016 , 10:07 AM
Hmm. Imagine if I bet the turn ( which i would do with a straight), then it pairs the board on the river! Biiiig pot.

I think you are right, I would have won a lot more money, but only if he doesn't have a straight.

Problem is I can't put him on specifically a set on the turn and the risk of the checkraise is there. Plenty of people like to call with flopped straights then jam on safe turns.

Say I make it £60 as you said, then he raises pot to 180+84(?).

Do I have enough equity to call? I think he would have maybe 100 quid left or so after his raise.
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04-19-2016 , 10:11 AM
60*3+84=264. I thought you had some experience as a croupier?
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04-19-2016 , 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by amok
60*3+84=264. I thought you had some experience as a croupier?
Haha yeh I edited the post before you replied
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04-19-2016 , 10:28 AM
It's really basic stuff. Count your outs. Count unknown cards, assuming he has KJxxxx. Work out your equity. If it's more than 33% you can call. Remember that all this is assuming he raises with nothing but the nut straight, so it's oversimplifying a bit.
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04-19-2016 , 10:56 AM
Yeah I think I can rely on the vast majority of players to play very straightforward out of position. I am sure that is your experience too.
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04-19-2016 , 11:03 AM
Flush outs
3h
4h
5h
6h
7h
8h
Jh
Kh
(8)

FH/quad outs
As
9s
9c
9d
Th
Ts
Tc
Qs
Qc
Qd
(10)

Straight outs
Js
Jd
Jc
(3)

21 outs

52-10=42 unseen cards

21/42=50%

of course not factoring in what he has
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04-19-2016 , 11:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LUCIUS VARENUS
Hmm. Imagine if I bet the turn ( which i would do with a straight), then it pairs the board on the river! Biiiig pot.
Precisely

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Originally Posted by LUCIUS VARENUS
Say I make it £60 as you said, then he raises pot to 180+84(?).

Do I have enough equity to call? I think he would have maybe 100 quid left or so after his raise.
Assuming he just has the nut straight, you have 19 outs (18 if he has the K). Like amok said, even if he announced he had the nut straight, you can call with implied odds here.

There's also some bad beat-ish possibilities like KJQQ where he can hit quads or KhJh where he can hit a straight flush, but so be it.
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04-19-2016 , 11:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LUCIUS VARENUS
1) Regarding flop sizing:

Does it matter that I have always potted the flop when I bet the flop in previous hands that they have seen?

If i always bet the same amount, doesn't it make it harder for them to read my hand strength?

FWIW I did think maybe I want to bet a bit less (£20) to control the pot size and decrease the amount they can raise to if they do raise but I bet the full amount for balance. I tend to have a (mistaken?) line of thought that if I have a draw I would prefer they folded.

In this game dynamic not a lot of folding happens. To make it perfectly clear, many of the players are gifting the money regardless of what you bet. Does that change your POV?
If you've always bet the same then yes continue. As long as you've thought about what your bet sizing is accomplishing i.e. if the game is very station-y and you're more often than not going for value when you bet, then why not go for pot. You know the game better than we do. In different, tougher line-ups then you may want to rethink it.

Others have responded well to points 2) and 3) so I'll leave it there.
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04-19-2016 , 11:06 AM
42.85714285714286

if 18 outs
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04-19-2016 , 11:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LUCIUS VARENUS
Flush outs
3h
4h
5h
6h
7h
8h
Jh
Kh
(8)

FH/quad outs
As
9s
9c
9d
Th
Ts
Tc
Qs
Qc
Qd
(10)

Straight outs
Js
Jd
Jc
(3)

21 outs

52-10=42 unseen cards

21/42=50%

of course not factoring in what he has
If another Ts comes out on the river, that would be even more interesting since you already have one in your hand

And if you know he has a KJ then it is 18/40 so 45%
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04-19-2016 , 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by greybeard33
If another Ts comes out on the river, that would be even more interesting since you already have one in your hand
my bad. you can tell counting outs is not my strong suit. i have 0 ability to do this in the pressure of the hand. it takes a long time to think about and there is a time constraint - i will get the clock called on me by the time i've worked it all out and i'll be doing it every hand. everyone will hate me haha

well, you get it. i have between a 40 and 50% chance of improving my hand.
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04-19-2016 , 11:20 AM
How favourably does the money he has left help me?

Say I am a 3 to 2 underdog because he has a straight, how does his money behind implicitly change that?
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04-19-2016 , 11:25 AM
BTW the money problems I had are no more

You probably saw the other £1100 pot thread and I have been staked to play properly
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04-19-2016 , 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by LUCIUS VARENUS
How favourably does the money he has left help me?

Say I am a 3 to 2 underdog because he has a straight, how does his money behind implicitly change that?
If he has 100 behind, then you're calling 204 to win 508 - the 408 pot and his remaining 100. 500:200 = your 3 to 2 underdog, so you're good. If he had 200 quid left, then you'd only need 33% equity. You just need to be sure he is going to dump it in. This is another reason it's so favorable to bet the turn; if he jams, then he has no choice but to gii even if the board pairs or the 4 comes on the river since he has so little left.

edit: Wasn't going to ask but glad to hear you are properly staked

Last edited by greybeard33; 04-19-2016 at 11:47 AM.
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04-25-2016 , 03:53 AM
We are, I presume, a favourite over dry KJ on the turn. Note this is 5 card omaha. Knowledge of another non heart non board pair card would probably put us over 50%. So worst case scenario vs KJ w/ hearts and a pair or something you are probably at least 40%. so bet gii on turn.


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5-Card Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation ?
38 trials (Exhaustive)
board: QhTd9hAc
Hand Equity Scoops Wins Hi Ties Hi Wins Lo Ties Lo
AhAdKcTs8h 47.37% 17 17 2 0 0
KsJs2s3s4s 52.63% 19 19 2 0 0
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