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Old 09-04-2011, 02:00 AM   #1
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Should You Use Checklists?

I agree with everything that the author said about using checklists while playing. And his example of the checklists used by pilots points out clearly that even "the pros", in whatever field, can use checklists to prevent mistakes, be they small or catastrophic.

But I want to look at checklists from a different angle. Checklists can be useful not just while playing, but before playing.

Playing poker at a high level isn't just about what happens at the table. It's about bankroll managment. It's about discipline. It's about study. And checklists can help you be more organized in these areas as well.

Full disclosure: I have Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD). I tend to be disorganized and easily distracted. I need to impose structure on my time and activities, and checklists help me very much with doing that

Like many others who have ADD, by necessity I have seen the benefit of using a checklist for everything from running errands to playing poker. I can also spot players on these forums who emphasize the freedom of poker, players who want to be free to "play poker in my underwear, whenever I want:"--which usually means that they don't need to take a systematic approach to the game.

In the rest of this post, I'm talking about players on these forums who say that they want to get better. They ask for help. They say that they want to make a certain amount of money. They say that they are serious about getting better at the game.

I believe that the biggest hole that many of these players have in their game is that they don't have a systematic plan of study. They don't set aside a significant amount of their poker hours for study, or maybe they don't even know how much total time per week that they spend on poker. They will even argue that there are certain things that they don't even need to know (usually either bankroll management, or anything that involves math or memorization.)

I submit that there are certain things that every poker player should know if he wants to be good at the game, that those things make a pretty long list, and that the best way to approach it is systematically.

For example, here is a partial list of things that a serious player might work on or study:

bankroll management
pot odds and outs
putting villian on a range
recognizing your table image
reading tells/giving off tells/false tells
ICM
memorization (more than just odds and outs)
keeping track of pot and stack sizes (live games)
short stack or final table tournament play

Of course, these topics can be subdivided. For example, if you're a live tournament player and you want to work on putting players on a range, you might pick one or two players, for example, the player on your left and the big stack, and see if you can keep track of how many hands they are playing from early position. When you get better at it, you can track more players, or the same number of players from more positions.

Another example is memorization, and as someone who frequently answers questions in the beginners forum, it's one of my biggest 2+2 frustrations. I will tell a player that it is useful to know what the odds are that he is holding the only ace at a short table, and the poster, who has come on 2+2 asking for help, insists that he doesn't need to know that, after I refer him to this chart:

http://pokersyte.com/texas_holdem_poker_odds_2.htm

Really? It's not useful to know that if you're holding A2o against 3 opponents, you have a 68% chance of holding the only ace? Or that against 6 or more opponents, you probably don't have the only ace? Knowing the numbers certainly affects how I play my weak aces shoft-handed!

So in memorization alone there is a lot to learn, which of course starts with odds and outs, and I'm astounded when I see a recommendation that someone learn to use the rule of 2 and 4 (I think that's what it's called) to estimate their odds. Seriously? Someone who memorized multiplication tables in elementary school can't memorize odds and outs?

The bottom line is there is a lot to learn, and it's easy to skip over, or consciously avoid, some of it, it you don't have a plan. In general, here's how I do it. Call it Checklists Gone Wild if you wish, but in my situation it works for me, and at least some of my ideas could be applied to a lot of players who really don't have a plan for improving at poker.

I keep track of my hours, just like I'm punching a time clock, by quarter hours. The main reason for that is to make sure that I get my study time in. I'm an MTT player, and it would be easy to go deep in a tournament, or finish one and see that another was about to start, and forget all about studying that day. But when I'm commited to daily entry of my work hours on a spreadsheet, I can quickly see if I'm not getting enough study hours in, and correct that by the end of the week.

As far as what to study, I have a big master list, which is basically all of the things that I would like to work on or study someday. I'm always thinking of more things that I should work on, and I might never get to everything. For example, studying tells is on that list, but I've never bothered with it, since I rarely play live. However, Black Friday changed everything, and playing move live poker, and studying tells, has moved way up my list of priorities.

So, I will generally pick a topic, and then work on a piece of that for a day or a week. For example, I might decided to work on tells, read a book, and then pick one thing (such as chip-handling tells) to concentrate on in my next live tournment. Or, I might decide to do some memory work, make some flash cards, and memorize the strength of every preflop hand against a random hand (The Full Tilt Poker Strategy Guide: Tournament Edition, pages 108-109.)

Or, I might spend a week on a new poker book. I usually read it quickly the first time, then slow down the second time and play a little more attention to the concepts. Then, either right away or sometime in the future, I might concentrate on a certain chapter or section of the book, studying it in more detail, working through all the math, and making sure that I really understand and can apply the information.

The point of all this isn't that my way is the best way. The point is that in poker, having a checklist (or at least some kind of plan) for study, is just as important as having a plan when you sit at the table. In fact, there are so many things to study that I would say that without a checklist, something important is going to be missed.

It is said that poker is about pushing small edges. By doing the study, you give yourself an edge. If you have memorzied the Odds for Aces Before the Flop table at pokersyte.com, and your opponent hasn't, villian probably has some idea that as the table gets shorter, he is more likely to be holding the only ace. But you know the exact numbers, and villian is guessing or estimating. You have given yourself an edge in that situation.

Take your study time seriously, and do it systematically. Use a checklist, and study everything. Gvie the edge to yourself, not your opponent.

Last edited by Poker Clif; 09-04-2011 at 02:06 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old 09-04-2011, 04:31 PM   #2
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Re: Should You Use Checklists?

Awesome thread!
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Old 09-05-2011, 10:19 AM   #3
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Re: Should You Use Checklists?

Cool Bananas
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Old 09-06-2011, 10:31 AM   #4
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Re: Should You Use Checklists?

good stuff
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Old 09-06-2011, 11:06 AM   #5
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Re: Should You Use Checklists?

Enjoyed reading this and got a little inspiration from you. Don't agree with you being against the rule of 2 and 4, though. Poker is not an exact science, and we don't need to memorize all odds and outs. The other uncertainties - like not knowing if all outs are true outs and much more makes the approximations OK. Lots of other stuff that is good to remeber though, so in general I agree.

Keeping track of your hours is really good - it is just to easy to play instead of studying. Sometimes we should also do that when we are not in the mood for playing our A-game.

GL with your lists and at the tables. I have to hurry make my own lists

Last edited by Dynasty; 09-06-2011 at 04:17 PM.
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Old 09-08-2011, 04:55 PM   #6
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Re: Should You Use Checklists?

Good post OP,

I also really like the idea of recording your hours. I have started trying to do that and it really shows how much time I waste when I don't focus on my poker goals. Also I liked your idea about a list of study topics.


GL
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Old 09-08-2011, 09:11 PM   #7
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Thumbs up Re: Should You Use Checklists?

Excellent post OP! Any routine that will keep you sharp, relaxed and ready for a competitive situation has +EV benefits. Though I don't keep a checklist (just not my thing), I do study the game in approximation re how you've strategically defined it. Now that free schools (i.e. FT Academy) are now longer available, I've gone back to reading more poker related books, along with my usual subscriptions of Bluff & Card Player Magazines. Interestingly, I just enrolled in CP's on-line school (free). The school has more articles and videos on Omaha 8 than anywhere I can find on-line. Preparing for a circuit event. I just don't think you can get better without studying at least a few hours/week.
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Old 09-09-2011, 12:01 AM   #8
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Re: Should You Use Checklists?

I don't know why you chose to single out the rules of 2/4 in your post. They are EXCEPTIONALLY good at predicting odds to within a few percent, and are within .5% in most real-game cases in HOLDEM.

All the time/effort spend memorizing the exact percentages will surely not increase your EV in a particular hand/at a particular table as much as spending that same time/effort learning the rule of 2/4 and using the time saved to study other concepts/practice
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Old 09-10-2011, 12:05 AM   #9
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Re: Should You Use Checklists?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadCo View Post
I don't know why you chose to single out the rules of 2/4 in your post. They are EXCEPTIONALLY good at predicting odds to within a few percent, and are within .5% in most real-game cases in HOLDEM.

All the time/effort spend memorizing the exact percentages will surely not increase your EV in a particular hand/at a particular table as much as spending that same time/effort learning the rule of 2/4 and using the time saved to study other concepts/practice
I thought about this, and my real concern isn't how much more mathematically correct knowing rather than estimating pot odds is in given situations. My problem is that it's lazy. Why estimate or figure it out at the table when you can just know the numbers? Again, if you can memorize multiplication tables, why not memorize pot odds?

I should state here that I'm not the only one that feels this way. In one of his books, I remember Moshman ending a section about pot odds with, " . . . you should know these odds cold."

I think that you should know the numbers in poker, and get in the habit of knowing them exactly. Here's an example taken from the Full Tilt Poker Strategy Guide: Tournament Edition (see page 101 for more details in the example):

---------------

You have 32o in the small blind. Everyone folds to you, blinds and antes total 6,000 chips. Big blind has 1,000 left, it costs you 2,000 to put him all in, and you pick up 7,000 if you win the hand.

Here's where knowing the exact math matters, as stated in the book,

"You are putting up 22 percent of the final pot (2,000 of 9.000) and 32o has a 32 percent chance to beat a random hand. You would always raise.

You can see in this example why knowing the numbers matters so much. Unless you KNOW the odds of 32o beating a random hand, you're probably not playing there. You might estimate and still think you're good. But if instead of getting a 10-point spread (putting up 22% of the pot with a 32% chance to win), what if the spread is 5 points, putting up 27% of the pot with a 32% chance to win?

Again, unless the player KNOWS that he's getting the right pot odds, with a 5% spread being a much tougher estimate or "feel play", he's probably not playing, even though he has the right pot odds.

Plays like that are the reason that poker players should discipline themselves to KNOW, rather than estimate, the numbers, whatever the situation.

Last edited by Poker Clif; 09-10-2011 at 12:07 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old 09-10-2011, 05:55 AM   #10
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Re: Should You Use Checklists?

I think the Schoonmaker makes a good case about using checklists. Having a checklist would likely benefit a lot of players.

I'm not sure that I like his examples of Hellmuth and Ivey, though. For instance, I wouldn't chalk up their mistakes due to a lack of not having a checklist. Those examples seemed more like freak instances than anything else.
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Old 09-13-2011, 09:05 AM   #11
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Re: Should You Use Checklists?

I like this post in regards to studying poker... I agree that memorizing information such as pot and out odds either in percentages (25%) or odds ratios (3:1) is very important and every SERIOUS poker player must know them!!!! But I do feel that rounding these numbers is OK... i.e 6 outs with two cards to come is 24.14% or 3.1:1 I think rounding it 25% or 3:1 and memorizing it that way is fine!!!
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Old 09-13-2011, 11:36 PM   #12
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Re: Should You Use Checklists?

A checklist is merely the formalization of a thought process.

When developing that thought process and transitioning from reasoning to reflex it helps to be able to methodically cover the bases.

I wrote my own trainer software to accomplish something similar after having had such great results from my blackjack trainer.

The thought process must be streamlined and as a matter of habit. Not noticing those two diamonds because of some distraction in the room could cost you your stack.
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Old 09-26-2011, 04:24 AM   #13
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Re: Should You Use Checklists?

Great stuff
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Old 09-26-2011, 02:11 PM   #14
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Re: Should You Use Checklists?

I said in my post that since Black Friday, I've moved live touraments and studying tells way up on my priority list.

My wife got me Caro's Book of Tells: The Psychology and Body Language of Poker for my birthday.
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