Such negatives as "not being able to have a social life/family time" would seem to outweigh any positives.

If you can't defend the poker lifestyle, which is the point of this thread, you don't have the right to hypothetically criticize mine. I'm here for the argument.

I dont think that you know what playing poker is, but certainly isn´t Thats sound so Dramatic to me.....poker its a skill game if you are good you can be profitable and still have social live. Dont make this such a problem, if you think poker is just a waste of time just leave it....I dont know what are you doing here on 2+2 if poker isn´t part of your lifestyle.....??

That sounds like a good myth, but is it really true, if like he said "you have to grind 60 hours a week and play all weekend"?

Don't remember signing a contract to be a 60 hour a week grinder to be able to post on these boards.

Lawl @ "Defending the lifestyle" - actually, I don't even think it's "the point of this thread" either but whatever.

Also he has the right to "hyothetically criticize" you regardless. Criticizm is this sort of God-given right last time I checked.

IMO the most "successful" players who rely on poker for income ("pros") have good social and family lives, stay in good shape and don't necessarily grind 60 hours/week online. So you're out to lunch there. Everything in moderation obv, including any type of work or game for income. All about balance. Also try making some sense itt ftw.

lol @ you not reading the article. It's an article which is about how great being a poker player is in so many ways. If that doesn't concern the poker lifestyle nothing does.

Yeah, if you're a jackass, and want to lose an argument with ad hominems that don't give you any credibility.

Maybe you should reread his post where he says that your social and family life suffers, and that he needs to grind 60 hours a week to make a quota to be professional.

You're the one who obviously doesn't understand this article or even direct quotations. You're just whining because I stepped on your poor little toes with my pointing out the truth. Cry more.

I don't think I need to "defend my lifestyle". I like playing poker. I'm good at it. I win money. And perhaps most important, my wife is on board.

I wrote what I did keeping in a mind that lot of people that read my posts are lurkers who won't even be involved in this discussion. Some may even be thinking about going pro.

I thought it was important to show that there are positive and negative aspects of a "poker lifestyle".

I can almost guarantee that there will be people, including family members, that won't understand, and that is of course something to be considered. I just found out two days ago that my sister-in-law has struggled with compulsive gambling, so much so that they dropped their internet access.

These are real issues, and now I don't feel that I can freeely discuss how my job is going in a lot of family situations. It makes things quite awkward.

But to me, the positives, such as income potential, flexibility of hours, and enjoying my work, far outweigh the negatives.

Playing poker would not work as a job for a lot of people, just as not everyone would do well as a policeman, or a salesman, or an auto mechanic.

Poker isn't a good job, or a bad job. It depends on the person.

I agree that most successful players don't need to grind 60 hours a week. But there will be players that want or need to do it from time to time, whether it's the WSOP, online in the WCOOP or FTOPS, to qualify for a deposit bonus, or to make Supernova. This really isn't surprising, when you think about how many other people work "overtime" in their jobs from time to time.

Poker hours can sometimes be erratic or long, and it's just one thing to consider when making it a career.

"You can work all day, or even all week, and lose money.

You are not treated fairly by the US income tax system--you are much more likely to have to prove that you are a "professional gambler" than if you are a a professional plumber or a professional musician.

A lot of people do not respect what you do. A lot more don't really understand it. Some will even assume that you have a "gambling problem."

It can mess up your social life and relationships. Try explaining to your wife/bf/gf/child/bff that the best games are on weekends, or that you need to grind for 60 hours that week to maintain your VIP level on PokerStars."


Lots of people would look at these, and even with the positives, draw the conclusion that It's not worth it. Being at the mercy of luck, having the IRS up your *******, people thinking you're immoral/shady, and playtime having priority over fun time/60 hours a week possibly being required. That's heavy stuff, is my point. I'd go as far as to say It's not for most people, where you didn't quite seem to.

My goal would be to play 35 or less hours a week, making a few grand after variance/taxes. I suspect from your description that this might be impossible. What do you think? If I had to work 60 hours a week, I think I might be inclined to find some kind of job instead, where I could work 40 hours a week making a similar salary, and having benefits, and more time. And I think most realistic people would agree with me there.

You didn't step on my "poor little does" bud. You are the one who made the assumptions above. I am trying to point out that not every "pro" is in that camp of grinding 60 a week and living an imbalanced lifestyle, which makes many of YOUR assumptions invalid.

Any job, game played for money, whatever is a personal choice and with diverse preferences poker is obviously good for some and not so good for others. I'll also remind you that your statements are merely opinion and don't necessarily constitute the "truth".

Way to not read the rest of the thread.

I have read enough of it to call you out on your statements.

Well, first, I expect to average around 40 hours a week, but there will certainly be weeks where I choose to play a lot more, or a lot less, than that. Just like in any other job, I think that poker players are allowed to take time off.

I have ADD, so I like to play when there few distractions, so I play more hours when I'm alone or it's quiet, and fewer hours when the phone is ringing, TV is on, etc. I do more than half of my playing after midnight.

Second, I think that I've pinpointed why we look at this so differently.

Yes, I could be a loser for a day, or a week, or possibly, rarely, for a month. That does NOT mean that I am "at the mercy of luck".

Yes, the negatives that I listed are daunting, but I wanted to be fair and point them out. But honestly, we both know there are lots of jobs where people can work long hours, and it is hard on relationships. Police officers and surgeons would be among many jobs in that category.

But if you think that a poker player is really "at the mercy of luck", then we are at an impasse, and no amount of discussion can change that.

Poker is not the lottery, or a slot machine. I am not playing against the house, or the state, where I would be at a guaranteed, long-term disadvantage.

I am paying a fee (rake) to play against other players. Poker is "advantage gambling", that is, gambling where the best players have an advantage, and over time, will be winners.

If I thought that I would only make money if I got lucky, I would never have done this. If I didn't know that I could make money at this, I would have never asked for my wife's support in this endeavor.

I got the idea for this when I was watching poker on TV, and I noticed that a couple Ph.Ds, one in computer science and one in theoretical physics, were winning poker tournaments against the best players.

These were not gamblers. They were nerds--highly intelligent, extremely well-educated men who analyzed poker and decided that they could be good at it.

I'm not a gambler, I'm a nerd. I don't buy lottery tickets, I don't do Super Bowl pools, and I will never probably never go to a casino unless it's for a poker tournament.

Luck has nothing to do with poker in the long term, and these forums are full of players that prove that, and math that proves that.

I have been playing part-time for two years as a trial, and now I am playing full-time while I build a bankroll so I can play bigger games. I give it two years, plus-or-minus six months, until I am making more money playing poker than I ever have doing anything else.

Already going over that stuff with Clif...Not doing it twice for you.

Well, don't you need to do a certain amount of hours to make a certain amount of money? If I want to do 35 hours and never do 60 hour weeks, accounting for bad luck, won't I not make enough to survive, or for that matter live comfortably?



How do you have any financial consistency if you randomly go on a losing streak for a month here or there?

Well I hope It's worth all that trouble. If you were to get an associates degree or even a bachelors in the same amount of time you've spent on poker, you would have your pick of a decent job, and with it benefits. Or a good start on a higher education for an even better job. And who knows, online poker might get fully banned in the states.

I have two associate degrees and and considerable work, including a completed minor, toward my BA. I may finish it someday, but if I do, poker money will be the means to that end.

For now, for a variety of personal and economic reasons, poker is the right choice for me.

Well can I or can I not accomplish my goal?

The key is to realize this...

When the skill level in poker is so high that it no longer is a game of risks, assuming all players are equal and will all make all of the same moves/calls, it becomes a game of luck and swings with the only winner being the raker.

Then it isn't even to be considered gambling... just feeding the rake guaranteed.

When will it get to that point?

Your goal is to make a decent living, working hours that would be considered at the low end of a full-time job.

Is that possible? Certainly. A lot of players on this site have hourly earn rates of $10, $20, or more. Many make much more than that.

I should tell you (and anyone else thinking of "going pro") that I knew I could succeed because, in my methodical, step-by-step, nerdy way, I gave it a very extensive trial. I was messing around on AOL, and had numerous top 50 finishes in MTTs with thousands of players (best, 9 of 2993). I decided I could be good at this, so I started playing on Party Poker, for play money, while I learned the site.

When Party stopped taking US players, I switched to play money on PokerStars, working my way up to the highest play money levels.

While I was doing all this, I made sure it was a complete dry run for the real thing. I researched the income tax implications. I kept records, including spreadsheets, to make sure my recordkeeping system was ready for the real thing.

When I finally switched to real money ($1 STT), I was around breakeven for a while. I lost my first $50 deposit, but it took 3 months to lose it.

Also, I read and studied all the time. Now, I try to set aside at least 10% of my time for studying. Some players on these forums report that they spend 50% of their time studying, but for now, I need to put in some serious hours playing and get my bankroll big enough to give me a little breathing room. One of my goals is to be up to 25% study time by 1/1/2010.

So, that's me. I know that most players would not approach poker this slowly and carefully. I had the "advantage" of being in an auto accident that put me out of commision for a while, so I had lots of free time to work on this.

But yes, anyone with some talent, who is a self-starter and has enough discipline for such things as bankroll management, table selection and tilt control, could do well. Your goals aren't extravegant, and I see no reason why you couldn't do it.

That's kind of how my journey into poker has been. I played a lot of freerolls and play money games for a few years before trying money. Bombed a few small bankrolls. I hope with what I'm learning in these forums; bankroll management, game selection, tilt control, that I can achieve my goal. By the way, just how bad are those tax implications? I've heard that it can be significantly worse than normal taxes. If you get screwed out of %60 of your winnings, that could be enough to dissuade you from trying to be a pro.

The problem with the tax code is that you may end up having a gross income of $300k but only be a net winner of $50k. In this scenario you get to deduct your $250k losing sessions for the year so your adjusted income is $50k as expected but having a gross of $300k has apparently negative implications on your ability to claim other tax deductions. So, your marginal tax rate should still be that of a person earning $50k (in the scenario above) but you may get to claim less in deductions than the average joe who makes $50k.

I'm not an accountant or tax lawyer but the above explanation is what I read.

Other than the "you must declare all winning sessions as income and all losing sessions as deductions" thing I don't know of any other tax disadvantage. Perhaps this is something about not being able to carry losses forward across years.

I don't think that the income tax implications of being a poker pro are better or worse than for any other self-employed person, for the most part.

I am a tournament player. If you play cash, substitute "session" for "tournament" and everything should be the same.

If you are a pro, you file schedule SE, just the same as, for example, a medical transcriptionist that sits home and types for 8 hours might be self-employed.

When you do your taxes, you file Form SE (self-employed). Your number from that form will go on your 1040.

Schedule SE is pretty straightforward. Your income would be tournaments with a net win. You paid $10 to enter an online tournament and won $50, you taxable income is $40.

Your main business expense will be net tournament losses. If you pay $10 to enter a tournament and you don't cash, you have business expenses of $10.

Any other legitimate business expense is deductible as well. This could include things like poker books, mileage to drive to a casino, second monitor for multitabling, software such as Holdem Manager, etc.

Since you don't work for anyone, you will need to do your own withholding, so set aside 30% of whatever you make. Putting it in a separate bank account would be the safest way to do this.

If you make more than a certain amount per quarter (I think that amount is $450), you have to pay estimated taxes each quarter. This won't be a big deal if you have set your 30% aside.

You will get taxed a little more if you are self-employed, regardless of the occupation. You will wind up kicking in another 3.5% of your income for this.


Here is where poker pros are at a disadvantage when it comes to taxes--Where gambling is involved, the IRS may not take your word for it that you are a pro. The basic standard is that is has to be your main income, and that it has to be a full-time job. If you are not a gambler, you might own 5 business, and have 5 different schedule SEs. Poker doesn't work that way. Either you are a professional gambler, full-time, or you're not. There is no middle ground.

Of course, you don't have to play full-time. Most players would have study and administrative time in there as well. Don't worry about hitting an exact number of hours. People do take vacations, after all. Just be aware that 15 hours a week might not cut it with the IRS (though it might, if poker was still your main, or only, income).

Make sure that, as with any other occupation, your business expenses are legitimate. If you go to Las Vegas to play in the WSOP Main Event, your food, hotel, etc, would be deductible. You have to be there to play. But if you live in Las Vegas and you could play just as easily without getting a room--well, it might be fun to stay in the hotel, but it's not deductible.

Home office, computers, etc, are deductible, if it's for your job. Don't try to deduct the television in your living room because you watch Poker After Dark every week. So if your computer is used by both you and your wife, but the second monitor is used only for multitabling, then the second monitor is deductible, the computer is not.

Have your records in order, in case the IRS checks. "Gamblers" are more likely to be audited than are most occupations. But don't worry, the IRS loves good records. If you have your records on spreadsheets, your hours logged, and receipts for your business expenses, and you get audited, they probably won't bother you again for a while.

Thanks for the info. Very helpful. I was drawing a total blank for how to do poker taxes.

Btw, Did you use a program to make those spreadsheets?

I use Open Office. It's free, and compatible with the MS Office programs. You can download it at openoffice.org.

Just to say that poker teach us many things about social behaviour and is an unvaluable tool.
I started playing poker this year (On january 2009) i am doing only a few hour a week, i have a full time job has a software developer and i am married with one son, so i dont have many hours per week to dedicate to poker, right now. But the more important is that i found poker (at age 30) and i am loving the game! I am sure that it will play for the rest of my life. I want to increase my playing time in a near future.

I only play No Limit Holdem on shortstakes (about 0.01 - 0.02/ 0.02 - 0.05c) because i am building my bankroll steadly. I am always learning poker, by the way, poker is fantastic because is a learning experience whatever the skill you have.

Regards for all!

1pokerboy is a noob. u