I liked this article and found it reassuring that someone was thinking along the same lines I was yesterday.

I was in a small stakes no-limit game and found that raising 1st in often put me heads-up out of position in a small pot that was going to get raked to death. Sometimes I'd pick up the blinds, sometimes my c-bet would win (showing a miniscule profit after the $2+1 rake) and other times I'd get my cbet flat-called and be faced with a difficult turn decision.
Raising a hand like 77 or KJs could put me in one of the above unfortunate situations (sans the perfect flop) or even deny me the chance of seeing the flop. Limping and calling a raise, which was often undersized, gave me the result of a bigger pot and good relative position for a checkraise.
Finally, it was much lower stress to be the cat in the jungle rather than the elephant on the plain who everyone is looking to bag.
I'd still agree that raising many hands in late position is a good way to win money by creating deception and the illusion of action, but limping some hands, speculative and strong alike, in early position can also create deception and the illusion of fishiness.

+1. It's a concept I often preach about for razz, with mixed responses, but for a lot of the same reasons that Brokos explains in his article.

Seems like it would be the most effective at a 9 or 10 handed table and with relatively shallow stacks (or at least awkward stack sizes) as in the author's example. The most common counter argument to this line is usually "you'll let the BB see a free flop", when obv that's quite rare at a full table and even when it is Hero will have position on the BB the rest of the hand to compensate him for his loss of "value" pre.

very good article, soem interesting points, thanks

in early position in a full ring you should only play 88+ or AK AJ AQ, if you get
reraised you can be pretty sure (against normal players) that the 3bet range
against an open raiser is much tighter, and you can fold AJ 88 99 TT JJ. if u open
limp, you have no information about the raise from your opponnent because he
can have a very good hand or he wants to punish the limpers. So if you go to the
flop (that by the way you will miss very often or get a to small piece of it), he has
the betting lead and the position, what gives him an big advantage.


lets say you have KJ you limp (EP) the button raises to 4bb you call
flop J23 (first question do you know if u have the best hand?) he bets 6bb you call
turn 8 (blank) he bets 14 bb what are going to do? you have no idea because you have no idea where you stand in the hand, because you open limped.

van, your example describes either a worst-case scenario or a scenario in a tough game. Of course you fold the K-J in early position when you will be routinely put to the test.

It is more common to see games where a raise from early position gets the respect it deserves and thus your action is limited, plus you will face some of the same out-of-position problems as the scenario you mention.

The point was to be able to identify games and situations where violating the sacred "no open limping" rule would be an improvement. To do this you have to be open minded about open limping.

It's an interesting technique that I have seen done but never done myself. I think that I just get too caught up in the game and I don't think to give it a try.

I play 6 max micro cash games, and as a general rule I do not open-limp. There are so many reasons to just open-raise vs open-limp in these types of games. When I have tough opponents behind me, I usually tighten up my opening ranges, so that I can make less mistakes postflop against them. At a normal table I feel comfortable opening with any two suited broadways UTG. If my table is tough, I won't start open-limping with these since the fact is I will be OOP against tough opponents regardless of whether I open-raised/limp pf, and I would gain less knowledge about their hands since they can limp behind, and if they raise its a much larger range since they didn't have the opportunity to 3bet.

That being said, at some tables I actually do employ the open-limp. When the table has been aggressively raising preflop and I want to see the flop as cheap as possible with sc's or pp's, then I'll limp. Or when there is someone at the table raises all the times just because ppl limped in front, then I'll limp with the intention of 3betting.

Yeah it's fine as long as you put some thought into it, which you clearly have.

small stakes games tend to be like the wild west so many of your "normal" playing strategies go right out the window. Ive had to work really hard at mixing my play enough so small stakes competitors don't spot my betting patterns immediately. It seems lately Ive been tossing 30 or 40 bucks away on loose calls just so I can see what type of play im up against. But I digress....this is all pretty basic stuff

I agree with the OP, although I am only a very slightly winning player (I am have improved a little since my last post and thousands of hands).

The problem with open raising is that people expect you to c-bet. So, you have two options: you either c-bet like a ****** into someone who hit three of a kind or flush or something or check to them and let them bet you out of the hand. I realize it is much more nuanced than this but this is the problem I often face. The simple raise -raise-raise tag strategy only works against very bad players.

If you simply raise 3x the bet with Ace-Ace you are giving someone with a hand like 77 the correct implied odds to call - the reason being that few people are willing to fold aces post flop. I know I can't do it very well. I don't fold aces often and am sometimes burned for it. But if I fold aces I am being equally idiotic if someone is bluffing me.

So I often like to limp aces early then if someone raises Ii simply shove all in. Same thing with AK if the blinds are low enough. I realize this is a really dumb strategy but it works okay against bad players if they don't know what you are up to. Actually, simply shoving aces is a very good strategy against very bad players, but that is another topic.

Anyway, I'm not very good but that is my take. Sometimes particularly against aggressive players it just seems much much easier to limp.

I actually play alot like this.. I like to play hands opposite of there strength.. If i have suited cards or connectors small pairs i play them hard for there easy to throw in the muck if im raised or called down.. And i play big hands that are harder to fold more on c/c lines. It actually works well in cash games along with early stages of mtts.... once antes start thou and average stacks become only 30bb or less its time to open raise almost every ip chance you get..

Nice article, thanks for posting.

very good article

Don't listen to any of this.

Hahahahaha! I didn't even read the post at first, and then I read it specifically because of your post. I just had to see how bad the advice was. And yup, there you go.

NO!!! Follow this advice to a T. And tell me where and when you are playing.

I have witnessed this several times and I also sometimes play the hands like this, it all depends o the stakes and whats on line as the bet.

This is all on luck and the player on table, I had people limp in with donk card and beat my big.pockets

Well you say you think KJ is a fold in EP but AJ is a raise.

Let's say you raise AJ to 4bb UTG and get flat called and the flop is AT2 fd. 1st question do you have the best hand. Some people won't 3b a UTG open with AK/AQ or TT and he can also have AT or a set.

You bet 2/3 pot and he calls. Now what do you do? You have built up a medium sized spot and are OOP with no idea if your hand is good or not.

You present a difficult case but that doesn't really speak to the issue of raising vs limping. Wouldn't the hand be just as difficult (or more) to play if you had limped? If your opponent limped behind do you lead and 3 bet, lead and fold, lead and call? If he raised pre do you lead and fold? The latter being the standard fishy line as far as I can tell. Check call two streets and see if he bombs river? Even worse. In the example you raised I'd probably bet turn and check/fold river. Easy game.

Again very your play, Sometimes limp with these hands in these spots, sometimes raise. Depends on the make-up of the table and the general flow of the game.

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