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Old 12-02-2010, 06:25 PM   #1
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Disgust as a poker tell????

This article seems to make zero sense at least when it comes to the Negreanu/Brunson hand discussed under the sub topic, Daniel Negreanu on The Big Game. Let me explain why. I did like the article said and watched the video before reading the text. I still have only read the article to the start of the next hand analysis.

I see all action at a table as tells. Some reliable, some not, some false, some real fake outs.

I thought that the video was ok for showing how the hand played in this case. I do not think that TV or vid can pick up everything in the hand which is why I think TV poker sucks. That said: Negreanu seemed to be spitting out tells and false tells all the way through the hand. He looked left early in the hand and showed a tell when Brunson reached, he put in a verbal declaration (tell), and even put in a courtesy disgust tell at the end of the hand.

In short Negreanu was spewing tells/fake tells through out the whole hand and even after the end of the hand. It is almost like he read the chapter about tells in Psychology of Poker. Come on. Standard play is to know that some tells can not be hidden so it is important to either stare into the felt breath regularly and keep your mouth shut or broadcast enough false tells that the other guy is confused. Negreanu is a good example of one tactict and Brunson is a great example of the other because he doesn't even need the felt.

The TV doesn't pick up most sighs, blows, sniffs, etc, but to make poker real exciting so it sells on TV they have to blow up visual tells. Most tells are BS. How many tells to you catch that you can really take to the bank? The noob that lowers his sunglasses before he bets the flop could be a idiot and he might be on a different level so that tell is not reliable unless you can pick up another one at the same time that is congruent with your read ("er did you know you could see your hole cards in your sunglasses? Did you get those sunglasses at the Dollar Tree, did you forget your hoodie?")

So why do we pretend that tells are so important? Yes they are but there is a reason that some good players who never put a pair of sunglasses on unless they were outside wear earphones and listen to music. Me thinks they know that paying attention to bet patterns and bet habits are much more telling than a fleeting twitch which unless exaggerated or slowed down doesn't register in the conscious mind. There are reasons they call them micro tells.

Well that is how I play it.
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Old 12-03-2010, 12:08 AM   #2
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Re: Disgust as a poker tell????

I thought Daniel had either a runny nose or some kind of sinus issue. That did not look like a look of disgust to me. Watch Daniel at 0:38 and then up through 0:48. He's moving his nose around and twitching his face like he has something affecting him physcially, not psychologically. Look at him kind of swallowing or doing something with his throat at 0:02 and 0:06.
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Old 12-03-2010, 10:42 AM   #3
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Re: Disgust as a poker tell????

i like your idea buc, that it takes multiple congruent tells and betting patterns to determine.

another congruence is to try to perceive how players perceive your style, because that can tie into how their tells and bettings patterns are directed at you.
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Old 12-03-2010, 02:20 PM   #4
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Re: Disgust as a poker tell????

Hi guys,

As the author of this article, let me respond.

It is true that some players send out false tells. It is also true that betting patterns, or for example hand range analysis is more important than non-verbals at the table. I'd never argue the contrary.

But even though Daniel is an expressive guy, and he twitches and talks a lot, and a seasonned pro, he does leak out tells. Doyle too by the way. After watching and dissecting thousands of hours of poker on TV for my teaching site, and playing as a pro myselfs for 8 years, I can tell you everyone has tells. Some hide them better than others, like Phil Ivey, but he has tells too. And Daniel often shows pacifying gestures, as well as contempt when he plays.

And to the argument that he had a runny nose, when someone inhales it does not create a creasing in the upper nose, not a raising of the upper lip. Only disgust does that.

But what makes disgust a very reliable tell is the fact that it's subconscious. Usually, players have no clue they are displaying these facial expresssions. You can't prevent it. And you can't hide, or at least try to hide what you don't know about.

And, just like Joe Navarro and Mike Caro have discussed in their books, disgust is one of the most reliable tells out there.

Nicolas
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Old 12-03-2010, 03:12 PM   #5
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Re: Disgust as a poker tell????

link to article and video plz
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Old 12-03-2010, 04:19 PM   #6
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Re: Disgust as a poker tell????

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Originally Posted by MaybeYesMaybeNo View Post
link to article and video plz
Article is here: http://www.twoplustwo.com/magazine/i...ls-disgust.php

Link to video is in the article.

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Old 12-04-2010, 01:14 PM   #7
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Re: Disgust as a poker tell????

Nicolas, Thanks for your response and contribution to the Magazine. It is a wealth of poker info if people bother to read it.

I think that my position, and I don't know if I was clear, is that the reading of tells while important, is very difficult, error prone, the use of the read can at best be used infrequently.

Tells usually represent anxiety. The problem is to figure out if the anxiety is because that ace on the board made their set or did it ruin the hand for them. I can see where disgust would make a read more accurate and useful.

I know we all leak tells. My best bluffs ever have always been when I misread my hand and BELIEVE that I have the nut hand. They almost always work because I believe I am a winner and I am giving out psychologically true tells.

So how can we create psychologically true tells? I have tried to think of twogirlsonecup when I see a flop I like. This doesn't seem to work out well. Nothing works like a misread. Is it because I am in-congruent?

Do you have any suggestions for putting out tells that are believed?
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Old 12-05-2010, 11:43 AM   #8
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Re: Disgust as a poker tell????

Very interesting...

I dont seem to remember the Caro bit about disgust being such a good tell, but it sure seems to ring true. Like when a tight guys raises or 3bets and the flop comes A high, sometimes ive seen even good players show signs of being pissed off...

as for putting out tells that you believe yourself, I cant tell you how to learn that, but I can tell you what kind of person can do that: Pathological liars and psychopaths! I consider myself to be a pretty good liar, or at least I was. It probably had to do with not being mature enough to accept consequences, but it also had to do with the fact that my dad would beat my ass with a belt unitl I was about 14. It was only when I fuc*ed up really bad, but I recall my parents telling me (at one of those serious dinner table conversations that always seemed like an intervention): "You can lie to us and not even twitch" or something like that. and it was true. I could actually come up with a chain of events and after repeating it often enough in my head, I could see it. Even now I can repeat some of the alibis I gave to my parents, and there are some where I myself am not quite sure what really happened. although my memory is pretty good, all things considered-

So maybe the place to start looking for a way to bluff so well that you believe it yourself is in a case study or a psychomanual about pathological liars....;-) Maybe one could look into what the shrink says set them off, and try to do something similar to oneself....

hahaha. Im just speculating here, please dont take me seriously. I guess the question is, how far would one be willing to go?

Anybody who knows a psychiatrist/psychologist, maybe you could ask about the mental makeup of a pathological liar and post it here?

Then we can all looks for clues to the holy grail of bluffing:-)

Last edited by StackMeAnIllCutYou; 12-05-2010 at 11:45 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old 12-06-2010, 08:53 AM   #9
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Re: Disgust as a poker tell????

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buccaneer View Post
Nicolas, Thanks for your response and contribution to the Magazine. It is a wealth of poker info if people bother to read it.

I think that my position, and I don't know if I was clear, is that the reading of tells while important, is very difficult, error prone, the use of the read can at best be used infrequently.

Tells usually represent anxiety. The problem is to figure out if the anxiety is because that ace on the board made their set or did it ruin the hand for them. I can see where disgust would make a read more accurate and useful.
This is true and and not. :-)

You are right that many tells comme from stress and anxiety (what are called pacifying gestures, or manipulators or adaptors), and so one need to figure out why the person is under stress (big hand or bluff). However, when you do figure it out for that specific player, it's usually a reliable tell. But you are right that one must be careful about not concluding that a stressed player is automatically bluffing. You'll see on our site that we show some of these gestures, even when players have a good hand. Ted Forrest, for example, has a stress tell when he is strong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buccaneer View Post
So how can we create psychologically true tells?
It's real, real hard, because we as humans are just rigged to feel emotions. The best way I found to hyde tells, and I can't even do this myself cause it's too damn mentally taxing and demanding (and it does not fit my style), is to become robot-like such as Chris Ferguson (and even so Chris has tells also). Aside from that, it's almost impossible to be tell free, and it's almost impossible to prevent tells.

Nic
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Old 12-06-2010, 08:56 AM   #10
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Re: Disgust as a poker tell????

Oh yeah and I forgot to add that there are many tells that are not stress / anxiety tells, but what I call "reaction tells", meaning that they come as a reaction to something that happenned. These tells include freeze/flight/fight responses as well as micro-expressions, like disgust.

Nic
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Old 12-06-2010, 03:50 PM   #11
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Re: Disgust as a poker tell????

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Originally Posted by Nicolas Fradet View Post
These tells include freeze/flight/fight responses as well as micro-expressions, like disgust.

Nic
Ya know this flight/flight thing is what I think is my huge tell. It is sometimes a beacon so bright that players could read the flop with if the lights went down. I do tend to freeze. On the other hand when action gets to me I am thinking about lots of stuff like bet sizing, sizing up players, variance, actual and dynamic position, and all the things we are supposed to consider when making a poker decision so I stop to think about these things. When I do everyone reads it as freezing or fear so I adjust by taking my time for even easy decisions. Does it work? I don't think very well. I have a reputation for taking a long time to play which gets comments (always from actors not thinkers). What would you suggest? I really do not slow the game. If I don't have a playable hand it is in the muck the moment guy on right acts. I do instantly call the clock on these actors when they take too much time and they lay off after I nail them a few times. The problem is that I feel my image is damaged by them saying I am taking too much time.

Will check out your site.
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Old 12-07-2010, 05:22 PM   #12
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Re: Disgust as a poker tell????

I think disgust is in the same category as "on tilt". When disgusted and on the verge of tilt people start playing more hands, they throw the chips in the pot like they don't care, and you can visibly see them getting upset. When people are in this state of mind I will be much more inclined to value bet them more, and call them alil lighter for big bets. Obviously you need to be confident with yo ur reads but when a person is in this state of mind they become EXTREMELY profitable

Edit: I just read the article and this isn't exactly what you were talking about but I think it fits in the category
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Old 12-07-2010, 11:51 PM   #13
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Re: Disgust as a poker tell????

With respect, I've looked back at the video link and watched Daniel on other videos, and I don't see the disgust you see. I don't think it was a runny nose necessarily, but some kind of facial/sinus issue other than disgust. I see Daniel make a similar expression a lot. But you have much more expertise in these things than I do.

I'm wondering what you see when Daniel stares at Doyle when the flop comes down, completely ignoring the 3rd player. Daniel then checks his vulnerable top pair when last to act. Do you think he had a tell on Doyle? Thanks.
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Old 12-08-2010, 03:30 PM   #14
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Re: Disgust as a poker tell????

Yeah you can play live poker as negreanu does and spit lots of tells / fake tells or you can buy some shades, a hat a hide behind your hands as ferguson or hellmuth does. They are just different approuches. I prefer negreanu's style tho!
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Old 12-15-2010, 10:18 PM   #15
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Re: Disgust as a poker tell????

i recently read a book called "what every body is saying" by joe navaro (ex-fbi agent) which explains alot about behaviors, eg; pacifying behaviors.. and also explains alot about the human brain. it has helped me identify when people are being deceitful or honest. it helps my poker game and life in general. yall should check it out..


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