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Walking around a major city as a Jew or Muslim Walking around a major city as a Jew or Muslim

02-28-2015 , 02:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NMcNasty
Care for a cite? I mean I'm reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return and I don't see how anything that you're saying is true.



Yes, if your father was black and your mother was Jewish, you can immigrate to Israel, but that's obviously not what I'm talking about here.

I'm a white male with a Christian last name and no Jewish ancestry (that I know of). I cannot convert to Judaism and then immigrate to Israel. Agree/Disagree?
Disagree. I personally know converts who have moved to Israel.
02-28-2015 , 02:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NMcNasty
Nope, if someone believes in crazy things its perfectly reasonable to call them crazy.
It's a gross generalization that provides effectively zero amount of specific or confirm-able information about 6 billion human individuals. It's a useless opinion.
02-28-2015 , 02:51 PM
Your link specifically says " The law since 1970 applies to those born Jews (having a Jewish mother or maternal grandmother), those with Jewish ancestry (having a Jewish father or grandfather) and converts to Judaism (Orthodox, Reform, or Conservative denominations—not secular—though Reform and Conservative conversions must take place outside the state, similar to civil marriages)."
02-28-2015 , 02:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NMcNasty
Nope, if someone believes in crazy things its perfectly reasonable to call them crazy.
Well, OK, then! YOU are crazy.

Take that.
02-28-2015 , 02:55 PM
A guy did the same thing (with a kippa) in the troubled suburbs of Berlin for 3 hours, didn't get a single reaction.
02-28-2015 , 03:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NMcNasty
I'm a white male with a Christian last name and no Jewish ancestry (that I know of). I cannot convert to Judaism and then immigrate to Israel. Agree/Disagree?
You are simply factually incorrect. And I'm not sure why you keep bringing up the colour of people's skin, which is completely irrelevant.
02-28-2015 , 03:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by microbet
Your link specifically says " The law since 1970 applies to those born Jews (having a Jewish mother or maternal grandmother), those with Jewish ancestry (having a Jewish father or grandfather) and converts to Judaism (Orthodox, Reform, or Conservative denominations—not secular—though Reform and Conservative conversions must take place outside the state, similar to civil marriages)."
FWIW I'm willing to concede that there are avenues to conversion and then immigration though it seems that's a bit of an ambiguous issue, otherwise there would be no need for DNA testing. My original point still stands though, if not as strong. People "born Jews" have immigration rights that secular converts do not. Israel's current immigration policy is a controversial break from halakhic law.
02-28-2015 , 03:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goater
And I'm not sure why you keep bringing up the colour of people's skin, which is completely irrelevant.
I was trying to use an example of someone who isn't racially Jewish to make my point, but of course you take it to mean "Jews hate black people" or something.
02-28-2015 , 03:48 PM
What is a secular convert?

Israel allows immigration of non Jews and has given preferential treatment to them including many Christian refugees.

http://m.huffpost.com/ca/entry/4493256
02-28-2015 , 04:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by microbet
What is a secular convert?
Point is you have to follow Israel's standards for conversion if you aren't racially Jewish. You can't simply identify yourself as a Jew and practice Judaism.

Quote:
Israel allows immigration of non Jews and has given preferential treatment to them including many Christian refugees.

http://m.huffpost.com/ca/entry/4493256
Its not a part of normal immigration policy though. But you can be a Christian but have "Jewish blood" and immigrate.
02-28-2015 , 04:52 PM
There's a religious component and there's surely a nonsense component, but there's an idea that it is a sanctuary and homeland for descendents of a tribe that has roots in Judea.

But other people CAN immigrate.

Who has a right to immigrate to any country? For most countries no one has a right.

If Jews are getting murdered in Europe again I sure as hell support them having a right to immigrate to Israel

Take it to the Israel thread. Whatever you think of Gamblor, he will give you all info you can handle on Israel's immigration policy and demographics.
02-28-2015 , 05:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by microbet
There's a religious component and there's surely a nonsense component, but there's an idea that it is a sanctuary and homeland for descendents of a tribe that has roots in Judea.
Israel as a sanctuary for people who are racially Jewish isn't something I'm totally against. I mean obviously the person who's doing the persecuting won't be sitting down and having a discussion with the persecuted as to whether they follow their people's religion closely or not. If a little racial discrimination helps prevent another Holocaust that's OK. But the idea that the descendants of a particular tribe are God's chosen people and that those who aren't descendants of that tribe are not and therefore follow a different set of rules isn't creating a safe haven, its just a superiority complex.
02-28-2015 , 05:42 PM
Well, from my Jewish pov it has a lot more to do with centuries of persecution culminating with the murder of 2/3 of Europe's Jews within living memory than it does with thinking Jews are better than gentiles.

Afaic, one of the tiniest and worst treated groups in the history of the world should have a tiny tiny bit of land where they control their own fate.

And that doesn't mean I don't support Palestinian independence or citizenship.
02-28-2015 , 06:16 PM
The Jews are always getting that 'Chosen People' bit thrown in their face. That they also handed up 'The Son of God', not so much.
02-28-2015 , 10:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NMcNasty
Also people should keep in mind that Dawkins, Hitchens, Dennet, Harris, Maher, Gervais, Charlie Hebdo, etc., aren't calling a billion muslims crazy. They're calling 6 billion religious followers worldwide crazy.
and as affleck said, they're just regular people who want to make their ****ing kids a sandwich.
03-01-2015 , 10:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thekid345
S.K

We see people whom believe that its ok to be critical of Muslims in general, but that its not ok to be critical of Jews in general. Some folks (including some modern day Muslims/Ex Muslims, and Jews) argue that Islam is a violent/intolerant religion, and that millions if not hundreds of Millions of Muslims around the world hold barbaric views. We also see people who believe that many Jews hold barbaric views. That said, many Muslims and Jews believe that its rude and possibly against their religion to be critical of Muslims in general or Jews in general. As a Catholic, I would say that Muslims in general, as well as Jews in general, do not pose a threat to society.

Groups like ISIL and Al Qaeda are filled with so called Muslims, but these groups make up a sliver of those around the world whom identify as Muslim . The # of so called Muslims whom are members of Al Qaeda, ISIL, etc, is not similar to the % of Germans whom were Nazis during WW2. The % of Muslims who would support killing a disbeliever is not similar to the percentage of smokers whom will have their health negatively effected by smoking. Some folks suggest that due to certain polls, that hundreds of Millions of Muslims are barbaric people. The issue is that these Anti Muslims are unaware of the large # of Muslims whom are against ISIL, whether verbally or physically. The logic of the Anti Jew, the Logic of the Anti Muslim, is a poor logic.

I feel that many people around the world, from numerous backgrounds, would agree that its offensive to suggest things like "most Muslims aren't terrorists" but that most terrorists are Muslims. And that its equally as offensive to suggest that Jews control the banks, or that Jewish doctors work with each other to jack up the prices.
It is wrong to be critical of all muslims and jews. It is not wrong to be critical of Islam or Judaism. Infact I would argue it is wrong not to be critical of them.

Quote:
argue that Islam is a violent/intolerant religion, and that millions if not hundreds of Millions of Muslims around the world hold barbaric views.
Hundreds of millions do and are not shy in sharing their views

Quote:
The % of Muslims who would support killing a disbeliever is not similar to the percentage of smokers whom will have their health negatively effected by smoking.
About one in 10 smokers will get lung cancer, depending upon how much they have smoked. (About one in three smokers will die of a smoking-related illness—lung cancer, heart disease, emphysema, etc.)

The % of muslims who support death for apostasy:



I will leave it to you to work out how many hundreds of millions of Muslims support death for leaving Islam

My comment was to with Islam and smoking so lets not get caught up on ISIS whom you keep mentioning in your post though I would imagine the majority of the worlds muslims do indeed disagree and dislike ISIS. I would guess the butchering of Muslims and murder of Jordanian pilot will not have helped ISIS's support

Your post contains many comparisons to jews when I never infered or mentioned jews in any way; My post was straightforward:

Not all Muslims are bad
Not all smokers get cancer

Smoking is bad for your health
Islam is bad for the world

Not all smokers will die from smoking
Not all followers of Islam will be bad people and do bad things

Last edited by S.K; 03-01-2015 at 11:07 AM.
03-01-2015 , 03:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PayoffWiz
There goes thekid again, incapable of discussing Islam without also discussing Jews.

Anyway, here is an article written by a moderate Muslim about the present day problems with Islam: http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-p...erate-muslims/. It's an interesting read if nothing else.


IMO one cant be a moderate Muslim, a moderate Jew, or a moderate Christian. King Adbullah of Jordan for example, explained in an interview that aired this morning, that he is a Muslim, as opposed to an extremist or moderate Muslim.
03-02-2015 , 04:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by S.K
The % of muslims who support death for apostasy:



I will leave it to you to work out how many hundreds of millions of Muslims support death for leaving Islam
You have provided insufficient data, as the poll only talks about a subset of Muslims (those who feel that Sharia law should be the law of the land). This is similar to asking only those Christians who feel sodomy should be illegal, whether or not gays should be put to death.

      
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