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Old 05-25-2014, 08:33 PM   #151
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Re: UK Politarding Thread

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Originally Posted by There Is A Light View Post
Isn't it a bit undignified for people like Hannan and Nuttall to earn their wage from an institution they don't believe should exist? It's like a vegetarian working at a butchers.
This pre-supposes they actually care about the subject and are not just milking an opportunity.

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Originally Posted by BertieWooster View Post
Yes, a not totally insignificant % of Lib Dem's have moved to UKIP. I'll try to find a source.
No way this is true. WTF kind of Lib Dem voter would shift to UKIP? Shifting to the more centrist Labour or Conservatives I get, but going far left to far right is a crazy swing.
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Old 05-25-2014, 09:01 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by [Phill] View Post
Yeah, whatever, xenophobic hate, not racial hate (but also racial hate for the vast majority).

I'm mad because it's stupid and wrong - morally, economically logically and factually wrong!

WTF reason could someone have to say they are against immigration even if that immigration would make the country better economically other than hate. When they talk about changing British culture that is barely even a dog whistle.
This is gonna come as a huge shock to you but I'm ignorant when it comes to politics! However... When u hear politicians from the main parties saying things like 'immigrants only amount to (Say 1%) of the NHS Bill ahah!' Makes them completely unvoteable. Add to that

I don't actually know if the net benefit of immigrants economically is > the cost but would be surprised considering politicians never say that straight up.

Do people agree with Farages comment on Romanian neighbours?
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Old 05-25-2014, 09:19 PM   #153
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Re: UK Politarding Thread

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Originally Posted by [Phill] View Post
This pre-supposes they actually care about the subject and are not just milking an opportunity.



No way this is true. WTF kind of Lib Dem voter would shift to UKIP? Shifting to the more centrist Labour or Conservatives I get, but going far left to far right is a crazy swing.
I may have overplayed it a little - it really isn't a great amount - but, yeah, it's pretty shocking.
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Old 05-25-2014, 09:26 PM   #154
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Re: UK Politarding Thread

A lot of the lib dem voters were merely dissapointed labour voters who wanted to vote for a credible party that wasn't labour, but they still hated the tories - so they voted lib dem.

When the lib dems went into coalition they felt betrayed, and now they feel like they can't vote labour or lib dem, **** the tories - so they're voting ukip.

Rationalising in terms of left/right etc doesn't work very well for uk politics.
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Old 05-25-2014, 11:34 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by S.K View Post
This is gonna come as a huge shock to you but I'm ignorant when it comes to politics! However... When u hear politicians from the main parties saying things like 'immigrants only amount to (Say 1%) of the NHS Bill ahah!' Makes them completely unvoteable. Add to that

I don't actually know if the net benefit of immigrants economically is > the cost but would be surprised considering politicians never say that straight up.

Do people agree with Farages comment on Romanian neighbours?
Which comment?

Oh and fwiw the economic debate is settled, the more immigration the better. The benefit MASSIVELY outweighs the cost, because why wouldn't it? There is no logic or facts behind migrant hate.

I have zero clue why the 1% of the nhs bill comment (or whatever) makes someone completely unelectable. Can you expand that point, I don't want to keep to conclusions.
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Old 05-26-2014, 06:25 AM   #156
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Re: UK Politarding Thread

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Originally Posted by [Phill] View Post
No way this is true. WTF kind of Lib Dem voter would shift to UKIP? Shifting to the more centrist Labour or Conservatives I get, but going far left to far right is a crazy swing.
These people will just be random swingy protest voters. I'm really surprised Lib Dem did so badly given they are the only major pro-EU party. I guess people really hate EU (or Clegg).
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Old 05-26-2014, 06:39 AM   #157
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Re: UK Politarding Thread

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Originally Posted by BertieWooster View Post
UKIP's xenophobic policies work because large swathes of the British population are, unfortunately, xenophobic. That's the reason these weekly "scandals" exposed by the press are not hurting their popularity. Farage revealing he wouldn't want Romanians moving next door because anybody who would potentially vote UKIP doesn't want Romanian neighbours either.
I mean fwiw some of the right wing parties from other countries are definitely more openly racist/xenophobic than UKIP and also had a lot of success. It's not just a British problem, it's a problem with people in general.
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Old 05-26-2014, 12:18 PM   #158
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Re: UK Politarding Thread

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Originally Posted by [Phill] View Post
Which comment?

Oh and fwiw the economic debate is settled, the more immigration the better. The benefit MASSIVELY outweighs the cost, because why wouldn't it? There is no logic or facts behind migrant hate.

I have zero clue why the 1% of the nhs bill comment (or whatever) makes someone completely unelectable. Can you expand that point, I don't want to keep to conclusions.
I was thinking maybe it has indirect or hard to quantify costs like placing pressure on Housing, Education indirect impact on current citizens seeking work. Is immigration still a net positive when we have a large number of people unemployed, particuarly 16-25 year olds?

There was a discussion on Newsnight about immigration, pro immigration lady was refuting anti immigration man by proudly saying something along the lines of "Immigrants only amount to 1% of the NHS bill" to which everybody applauded. That fact alone is misleading. If you only have 500 immigrants in 60m then its not quite so rosey dosey. I just felt that comment and direction of the debate embodies the climate of politics. There is no straight talking honest politician, only agendas semantics and stat manipulating.
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Old 05-26-2014, 12:38 PM   #159
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I was thinking maybe it has indirect or hard to quantify costs like placing pressure on Housing, Education indirect impact on current citizens seeking work. Is immigration still a net positive when we have a large number of people unemployed, particuarly 16-25 year olds?

There was a discussion on Newsnight about immigration, pro immigration lady was refuting anti immigration man by proudly saying something along the lines of "Immigrants only amount to 1% of the NHS bill" to which everybody applauded. That fact alone is misleading. If you only have 500 immigrants in 60m then its not quite so rosey dosey. I just felt that comment and direction of the debate embodies the climate of politics. There is no straight talking honest politician, only agendas semantics and stat manipulating.
I bet her comment was in response to the immigrants are bankrupting the nhs talking point I've seen before.

Yes, immigrants are good because the economy is directly boosted, jobs are not finite. If the immigrants can come and get work and the youth can't that is a sign of other things being broken, not the immigration policy. If there were no immigrants the youth wouldn't have those jobs, they either don't have the skills or don't have the inclination.

Similarly more housing can be built - but the current policy is to boost consumption by building less houses than needed creating wealth by boosting house prices by restricting supply. Again if you see this as bad it's a reflection of a broken housing system, not a broken immigration system.
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Old 05-27-2014, 05:04 AM   #160
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Re: UK Politarding Thread

Of course immigrants are good for the economy.

We didn't have to birth them, educate them, pay child benefit, pay their parents' maternity leave, give them tax relief, subsidise their healthcare, etc., etc. for a full 18 years before they start paying anything back.

They come into the labour pool pretty much cost free and are ready to start paying taxes and being economically active from day one.

It's like the best deal ever for the economy.
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Old 05-27-2014, 07:33 AM   #161
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Re: UK Politarding Thread

I know a handful of people who voted UKIP, and none of them could reasonably be described as racists. They're mostly just simplistic/apathetic voters who despise the mainstream parties and are particularly pissed off at having been lied to about the prospect of an EU referendum on more than one occasion.

I suspect there's more anti-EU than anti-immigrants sentiment in the UKIP vote; that's certainly the case with the ones I've spoken to. The fact that Milliband is so hopelessly inept in just about every way is also driving a lot of anti-current government votes away from the natural alternative of a Labour vote.
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Old 05-27-2014, 02:13 PM   #162
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Re: UK Politarding Thread

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I know a handful of people who voted UKIP, and none of them could reasonably be described as racists. They're mostly just simplistic/apathetic voters who despise the mainstream parties and are particularly pissed off at having been lied to about the prospect of an EU referendum on more than one occasion.

I suspect there's more anti-EU than anti-immigrants sentiment in the UKIP vote; that's certainly the case with the ones I've spoken to. The fact that Milliband is so hopelessly inept in just about every way is also driving a lot of anti-current government votes away from the natural alternative of a Labour vote.
This is basically exactly why I voted UKIP. I'm actually perfectly in favour of (controlled) immigration. I'm not in favour of the EU, with its excessive influence on our laws, huge costs and its general transformation from what we signed up for into an inflated political entity. If I could believe the Tories on giving us a referendum, and not spinning bull**** like they did on the AV vote (namely pedalling inflated figures of costs, most of which was optional and/or already spent regardless of the result), they might have got my vote, but I can't believe them, much like I can't believe any of the mainstream parties on more or less anything. We'd just see a ton of "omg think of the trading agreements, the economy will collapse" which I think is hugely overstated, Switzerland seems to be doing just fine being in a trading agreement but not in the EU, that'd do quite nicely. We're already seeing similar scaremongering on the Scottish independence issue and I can't see it being any different on an EU vote.

My vote wouldn't change to one of the big 3 in a general election either - I voted independent last time and will likely either go UKIP or another independent if one is standing, possibly the Greens if they ever get a credible energy strategy. Certainly wouldn't revert to our blue coloured sock puppet we have here as Millbank would like.
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Old 05-27-2014, 04:09 PM   #163
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Re: UK Politarding Thread

If a voter thinks that the most important problem affecting the UK is our relationship with the EU they have no option but to vote UKIP - it stands for United Kingdon Independence Party, after all. Neither Labour nor the Lib Dems want to offend the mighty EU and David Cameron has already once promised a referendum and renaged on that promise.

Of course he was stupid beyong belief - if a referendum had been held then I am pretty sute it would have been to stay in. Now, years later, many people think things have got worse and there's now a much better chance of the vote being to come out.

As for branding parties racist or homophobic, or loonies, or fruitcakes, no-one who votes Labour agrees with everything every Labour MP says - and that applies to every party of course. Including UKIP. Trying to control the number of people coming legally and illegally into a country seems to be to be reasonable. But giving any of them money for doing nothing, and allowing thousands of illegal entrants to vanish, seems to me to be unreasonable beyond belief. Yet none of the parties has seriously said they intend to alter it. So I think they are all rotters.

PS Nigel Farage did not say he did not want a gang of Romanians living next door to him - he said he would be worried (at least that's what the press reported in the newspapers I read)! I guess that anyone who has read in the press about Romanian gangs would also be worried. It's exactly what Enoch said: Cultures do not easily mix - it takes years and until it happens there will be lots of problems and misunderstandings.
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Old 05-27-2014, 05:08 PM   #164
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Re: UK Politarding Thread

Politard noob here, UK finally getting interesting, can anyone clear up these questions:

WTH is a coalition and why does the UK have one?

Was Gordon Brown as bad as everyone made out?

Will Scotland get independence?

Are UKIP just a flash in the pan or had Brit politics drifted too far to the left?

Why does everyone hate the EU?

Has Cameron stuck to his campaign promises and overall how happy are the public with him/Tories?
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Old 05-27-2014, 05:12 PM   #165
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Most betting sites seem to be offering somewhere in the region of 8/11 to 4/7 on of there was a referendum. Interestingly, only 1/4 that it'll happen in the lifespan of the next government.

I think there's probably a bit of value hammering on the stay at the moment
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Old 05-27-2014, 08:50 PM   #166
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Re: UK Politarding Thread

Answer in bold:
Quote:
Originally Posted by lol i play 2NL View Post
Politard noob here, UK finally getting interesting, can anyone clear up these questions:

WTH is a coalition and why does the UK have one?
The Prime Minister isnt directly elected. We elect MPs then the MPs vote for the PM. When one party has a majority then that party votes for their leader but when no one party has a majority they need to horse trade deals to get votes. In this case the Lib Dems voted in Cameron as PM and in return they get to have Clegg as Deputy PM (a mostly symbolic position) and several policy ideas, in return for supporting other Conservative policy ideas.

Sometimes, like in Holland, you can spend many months without a government due to no agreement, when this happens they will just do the election again and just keep going until a coalition or majority is found.


Was Gordon Brown as bad as everyone made out?
At least as bad.

Will Scotland get independence?
If they vote yes, which they probably wont.

Are UKIP just a flash in the pan or had Brit politics drifted too far to the left?
It is a lot more complicated. Britain has always had a populist sentiment against Europe. As a culture a lot of us just dont identify as European and UKIP is an extension of that. There are other factors in play. UKIP is mostly just the far right wing of the Conservative Party who had to cut loose most of the worst policies to be mainstream, see gay marriage opposition for eg, but Euroskepticism is one policy that remains fairly popular despite being objectively wrong.

Why does everyone hate the EU?
I basically covered this above, it all folds in together.

Has Cameron stuck to his campaign promises and overall how happy are the public with him/Tories?
More or less yes on the promises. Especially when you consider they are in a coalition and didnt have a majority to deliver all their policies. You can go scope out a poll if you want but basically if the election was held tomorrow it would be another coalition government, IIRC. A big factor is that Ed Milliband is a ****ing joke and cant capitalise on slip ups. Also they would be in a much greater lead without UKIP drawing off some of the far right votes on the spectrum.
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Old 05-28-2014, 11:47 AM   #167
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Re: UK Politarding Thread

People who vote UKIP aren't as anti Europe as you think.

It's pretty much a question of "I'm sick of hearing foreign accents when I go to the shops"

http://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/02/24/...s-its-support/
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Old 05-28-2014, 12:13 PM   #168
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Re: UK Politarding Thread

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People who vote UKIP aren't as anti Europe as you think.

It's pretty much a question of "I'm sick of hearing foreign accents when I go to the shops"

http://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/02/24/...s-its-support/
According to your link that seems to be the case for the majority of those polled, not just Ukip supporters

Last edited by Husker; 05-28-2014 at 12:20 PM. Reason: Assuming you mean immigration
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Old 05-28-2014, 02:11 PM   #169
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Re: UK Politarding Thread

LOL at choosing between UKIP and the Greens.

Wake the **** up man and do some reading, you realise that sans Europe those parties are pretty much diametrically opposed on nearly every other issue.

The irony is I am heavily anti EU but would never vote UKIP in a million years because the rest of their policies are basically very right wing and based heavily on anti intellectualism.

UKIP is not a single issue party.
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Old 05-28-2014, 02:28 PM   #170
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Re: UK Politarding Thread

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Originally Posted by [Phill] View Post
Answer in bold:
Excellent, thanks for that
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Old 05-28-2014, 11:32 PM   #171
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Of course immigrants are good for the economy.

We didn't have to birth them, educate them, pay child benefit, pay their parents' maternity leave, give them tax relief, subsidise their healthcare, etc., etc. for a full 18 years before they start paying anything back.

They come into the labour pool pretty much cost free and are ready to start paying taxes and being economically active from day one.

It's like the best deal ever for the economy.
Never thought of it that way

Not all immigrants are skilled though are they? We should do it like Canada / Australia do

Last edited by S.K; 05-28-2014 at 11:55 PM.
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Old 05-29-2014, 07:03 AM   #172
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Re: UK Politarding Thread

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According to your link that seems to be the case for the majority of those polled, not just Ukip supporters
53% of all respondents said immigration, including the 6640 ukip voters (of 8000 in a euro election - it was a bit higher but they said 'more than 4000' would vote ukip in a general election and it doubles for euro election). So 19610 total respondents said immigration was a top 3 issue. Remove the 6640 ukip tontos and you have 12970 total immigration spazzies. Of 29000 non ukip voters, 44.7% said "they took our jobs", so no, that's not the case for the majority of those polled.

Spoiler:
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Old 05-29-2014, 07:24 AM   #173
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Re: UK Politarding Thread

It is the case for the majority of those polled. You are changing it to the majority of non Ukip supporters
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Old 05-29-2014, 07:54 AM   #174
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Re: UK Politarding Thread

Aye, my point is that that is because there are a lot of ukip mongs in society (of course more so in England). Originally my point was that it is immigration, rather than the EU, which makes people want to vote ukip.
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Old 05-29-2014, 08:19 AM   #175
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Re: UK Politarding Thread

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Aye, my point is that that is because there are a lot of ukip mongs in society (of course more so in England). Originally my point was that it is immigration, rather than the EU, which makes people want to vote ukip.
This, this, this. Whilst I don't agree with them, there are genuine reasons for leaving the EU apart from immigration. Thing is, free movement of people apart, there is basically nothing about being in the EU that your average kipper is directly affected by.
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