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A two-state solution for Ukraine?  The Ongoing Ceasefire That Isn't A two-state solution for Ukraine?  The Ongoing Ceasefire That Isn't

05-08-2015 , 03:36 AM
Weren't they originally saying it wasn't a BUK at all?
05-08-2015 , 04:17 AM
The Ukrainian plane story fell apart when the wreckage contained parts that can only have come from a BUK missile.
05-29-2015 , 05:16 PM
http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...ory-says-study

Russia shelled Ukrainians from within its own territory, says study

Satellite images, digital detective work and social media provide strongest evidence yet of Russian crossborder shelling, according to investigation
06-02-2015 , 01:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ISilly_DurrrAK
http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...ory-says-study

Russia shelled Ukrainians from within its own territory, says study

Satellite images, digital detective work and social media provide strongest evidence yet of Russian crossborder shelling, according to investigation
This study is pretty old and I believe was somewhat discredited. It's known for certain that Russia is "fortifying" the border with Ukraine, but even Putin likely isn't stupid enough to blast artillery across the border.

The status quo is working out well enough right now for Russia. It will be interesting to see if they really do attempt a massive siege on Mariupol over the next few months as many are predicting. If Mariupol falls I can't see a unified Ukraine recovering.
10-13-2015 , 08:18 AM
No surprise that all evidence for the downing of mh17 pointed to a buk missile. The latest attempt from Russia to deny involvement has now shifted to saying that specific missile would have been too old.
10-13-2015 , 12:22 PM
Russia's reaction is pretty desperate:
- it wasn't a Buk!
- if it was a Buk, there is no way to tell which type it was!
- if you can tell, it was definitely one of Ukraine's Buks!
10-13-2015 , 03:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MvdB
Russia's reaction is pretty desperate:
- it wasn't a Buk!
- if it was a Buk, there is no way to tell which type it was!
- if you can tell, it was definitely one of Ukraine's Buks!
I saw a claim that it couldn't have been the rebels as they never had BUK systems.

Who was shooting down Ukrainian military jets then?
10-14-2015 , 06:18 PM
They have come a long way if you consider that one of their first stories was that the missile was launched by the Ukrainians to shoot down Putin's plane.
10-15-2015 , 08:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bremen
I saw a claim that it couldn't have been the rebels as they never had BUK systems.

Who was shooting down Ukrainian military jets then?
Russians, on vacation.

I think their propaganda is actually pretty effective. The idea is not to convince everyone, it's just to create a seed a doubt, slow down decision making and derailing the conversation. Works great in Russia and somewhat makes people apathetic even abroad.
10-15-2015 , 12:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imaginary F(r)iend
Works great in Russia
According to an opinion piece I read about 44% of Russians think Ukraine shot the plane down, and 12% think the US shot it down. Only 3% thought the rebels were responsible.
10-15-2015 , 01:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bremen
According to an opinion piece I read about 44% of Russians think Ukraine shot the plane down, and 12% think the US shot it down. Only 3% thought the rebels were responsible.
I'm aware of these results. I guess I mean that Russians actually swallow that stuff.
10-15-2015 , 05:08 PM
Average Russians are not that different from your average westerner. Not sure what the average American would end up believing if all channels were a repeat of Fox news. Problem is that Russians have enough examples to be very sceptical about western media and Russian media is Fox news quality only.
11-01-2015 , 02:01 PM
Had a question or two if anyone is living in Ukraine right now, if you could send me a PM. Would appreciate it.
11-01-2015 , 11:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imaginary F(r)iend
I'm aware of these results. I guess I mean that Russians actually swallow that stuff.
You are assuming they truthfully reported the poll results.
11-02-2015 , 07:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by campfirewest
You are assuming they truthfully reported the poll results.
The poll results might not be 100 % accurate but I can't find any source to dispute that. Finland also got tons of Russian (highly educated) expats and even their world views are a bit funky.

      
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