Yeah it does seem rather contradictory to say, "There's nothing absolutely 'wrong' with you" and then follow that immediately up with "So here's the list of complicated surgeries and medications you'll need"

It's clear something went 'wrong' somewhere. Medical science is still trying to get a handle on the best course of action for this situation.

I can't see the point you're making there. Of course there is something wrong and it's not uncommon for people to need complicated surgeries and medications to treat things that are wrong.

That doesn't make them mentally ill.

@Nishash. Heath insurance rules are going to have to change to cope with many things. It has to react to the need not vice versa.

Well, I think you're probably overly concerned with how society still sees the label "mental illness" even if it's an applicable one.

The average joe still of course thinks: 'mental illness' = crazy

And that's why nobody wants to get stuck with a label which carries a very heavy negative stigma.

Not only that but I agree that transgender people have enough problems with attitudes without people adding another stigmatized label to them.

Even if mental illness isn't stigmatised there will still be a fundamental difference between something like schizophrenia and something like being transgender.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I am beginning to understand how gender roles are separate from biology. Unisex private bathroom and locker room stalls would allay my concerns on privacy. Sports teams need some biological rules IMHO.

Dudes struggling with this... some questions.

1. Do you know any trans people well?

2. For mental illness you need a down side or negative effect. Plenty of transitioned trans folks are happy stable and secure in who they are now. Its a major stretch of any definition of mental illness to define these folks as ill.

1. No

2. No its really not a stretch at all. The down side or negative effect is requiring years of therapy, medication, and surgery, in order to be happy stable and secure. If you want to say that those things cure them of their mental illness then ok.

(I'm not struggling with this, but figured I'd try to be helpful anyway)

1. Yes.

2. The disorder is called "gender dysphoria" in the US. A happy-go-lucky person who feels that their body has the wrong important bits wouldn't get the diagnosis. A person who is just mildly annoyed that they have the wrong bits would also not get the diagnosis. A person who has transitioned and feels better wouldn't get the diagnosis. The person has to feel significant distress to get the diagnosis - it is the distress that makes it a mental disorder.

I understand societies attitudes lead to a lot of depression for trans ppl. But even without that, there would still be a huge amount of depression for them. They have a body that doesn't fit their mind. Even if they transition, a lot are still going to be depressed because they are never going to truly look like the other gender. Society isn't going to find them attractive no matter if society is accepting of them or not. I just don't see transitioning as the definitive key to happiness for these ppl. You don't have to call it mental illness but I think a lot more medical research needs to be done before we as society encourage people to transition genders.

If any of that were true, we would have empirical evidence that transitioning leads to poor psychological outcomes.

I take it that you believe that the 90% of people who are moderately-to-severely physically unattractive are depressed?

Nice straw man, they are not the same thing. Do you have any statistically evidence that transitioning leads to greater happiness?

You said that they would be depressed because they are unattractive.

You were the one making the positive claim. It is your responsibility to show your evidence that transitioning would lead to depression because society would find the transitioned people unattractive. Please show your evidence that transitioned people are depressed at rates equal to non-transitioned gender dysphoric people and evidence that this is because they are unattractive to the rest of society.

I thought this was interesting, it was written a few years ago. The author was a gay activist who did not take the party line.

"No" to the notion of transgender
by Ronald Gold

“What is transgender? Well, there are two sorts who seem to be covered
by the name, the drag kings and queens so good at portraying cartoon
imitations of straight people, and transsexuals, the folks who report
that from an early age they've felt themselves trapped in the wrong
bodies. Despite the equipment they were born with that belies their
assertions, they say they are really men or really women.

“What does it mean to be really a man or a woman? Since it's not about
genitalia, it must be about personality, and what, one asks, is a male
or a female personality? Even straight people nowadays concede that
some men are the warm, loving type that used to be thought exclusive
to women, and some women are the strong, action-oriented sort that
used to be thought exclusive to men. And lesbians and gay men have
always known that people of the same gender can be very different from
each other. Isn't it true that those we form mated relationships with
are always complementary - even polar opposites - to ourselves?

“Let me state it categorically. There is no such thing as a male or
female personality. Personality is not a function of gender.

“So where does that put the concept of transgender? In my view, down
the tubes! And that leaves the further questions of how transsexuals
got to think the way they do, and what to do to resolve their
dilemmas. I hope I'll be forgiven for rejecting as just plain silly
the idea that some cosmic accident just turned these people into
changelings. What happened, more than likely, is that, from an early
age, when they discovered that their personalities didn't jibe with
what little boys and girls are supposed to want and do and feel, they
just assumed they mustn't be real little boys and girls.

“So, parents of such little boys and girls, do not take them to the
psychiatrist and treat them like they're suffering from some sort of
illness. Explain to them that, whatever the other kids say, real
little girls do like to play with trucks and wear grimy jeans, and
real little boys like to prance around in dresses and play with dolls.
And make sure the teachers are on the same page.

“As for adults struggling with what to do about their feelings, I'd
tell them too to stay away from the psychiatrists - those prime
reinforcers of sex-role stereotypes - and remind them that whatever
they're feeling, or feel like doing, it's perfectly possible with the
bodies they've got. If a man wants to wear a dress or have long hair;
if a woman wants short hair and a three-piece suit; if people want
romance and sex with their own gender; who says they can't violate
these perfectly arbitrary taboos? A short historical and
cross-cultural survey should establish that men and women have worn
and done all sorts of stuff. I recall reading something by Jan Morris
in which it seemed that he thought he needed a sex change because he
wanted men to hold doors open for him and kiss him goodbye at train
stations. For starters, I'd have told him that I've had these nice
things happen to me and I've still got my pecker.

“Perhaps it isn't needless to say that a No to the notion of
transgender does not excuse discrimination against cross-dressers or
post-op transsexuals in employment, housing and public accommodation;
and I strongly support legislation that would forbid it. I would,
however, get after the doctors - the psychiatrists who use a phony
medical model to invent a disease that doesn't exist, and the surgeons
who use such spurious diagnoses to mutilate the bodies of the deluded.”

http://dyneslines.blogspot.com/2009/...nald-gold.html

A non-PC take from a feminist, discovered from the comments to the article I posted above.

https://thefeministahood.wordpress.c...at-is-a-woman/

"To my mind the bathroom issue is simple. People with penises do not belong in women’s toilets and changing rooms – for two reasons. 1. Men have made their penises into a tool to assault women with. 2. Women can get pregnant against their will and are more likely to suffer other negative consequences of a sexual assault, including catching life threatening infectious diseases."

Yeah. Except trans women are far more likely to be the victom of sexual assault than the attacker...

So if you're cool with more people getting raped its a totally acceptable "non-PC" view.

Oscars' best male actor presenter Julianne Moore used the term gender confirmation surgery instead of gender reassignment surgery. Thoughts?

You are absolutely right. My proposed solution is to have unisex private bathroom/dressing stalls. I thought the links I posted were interesting/entertaining and presented a contrarian view. Your mileage may vary.

My interest in this subject has to do with my personal work experience. I inherited this issue when I was promoted to a location after this person had their sex reassigned by HR.

Interestingly, the people in my office without penises were uncomfortable with this person with a penis (and long hair and breast implants) using their restroom. The persons in my office with penises giggled about the whole thing.

Eventually we moved to an office with a second set of one stall individual restrooms in addition to the group rest rooms, this solved the problem

lol at that post by "Ronald Gold" whoever that is.

There are such things as male and female brains. Also, we have no idea how gender identity is constructed. Maybe instead of throwing out random arguments from personal incredulity, just take people who are going through the experience seriously, it's not like anyone is super keen to transition genders just for kicks.

There is a section of the left who for some reason think, despite it never actually working in practice, that you can change attitudes to things by changing what they are called. It's annoying, but it's easier not to fight it.

To me the most tenuous link in this is, does a "female brain" or vice versa, however you define that, necessitate female bits, or are the physical changes just an attempt at social acceptance in your desired gender. In other words, if female with penis was a socially accepted/embraced category, would the desire for physical change disappear.

If you'd like to learn about it, you can actually read the studies about male and female brain differences and what is involved in gender dysphoric disorder.

Feeling very uncomfortable that you have the wrong important bits isn't a social thing. That people aren't nice is a problem, but it isn't the main problem. Finding that someone gay has a strong opinion that gender dysphoric people just need to be accepted isn't really helpful.

Unfortunately, if you just read blog posts and opinion pieces, you get to just hear someone's guess or intuition.

Well this is where he goes wrong. He's just making up a false dichotomy. It doesn't seem very well thought out.

Wait a second... You mean that gay people are, umm, like human and just because one opens their mouth to speak that you shouldn't take it as gospel because they might be talking out their ass due to poor thinking skills and lack of basic knowledge and biases about others who are different than them?!?

I'm shocked and dismayed.

Interesting article that just came out: Transgender kids have good mental health when allowed to be themselves