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Trans Gender - Mental Illness? Trans Gender - Mental Illness?

09-05-2015 , 05:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wheel Gunner
An analogy if you will. You are a Japanese woman who paid to have a relatively common plastic surgery to make your eyes more "Western".

But suppose you are Japanese woman who is convinced you were born in the wrong "race" and feel the eye surgery is the only thing you can do to fix your racial identity issues. You are also a prisoner and convicted murderer. You successfully sue the state to pay for your operation primarily because the gay lobby espoused your cause.
An analogy:

X is a disorder, which a large number of people have struggled with, is well researched, and for which there is a consensus amongst both the medical and psychological professions as to a certain course of treatment.

Y is an unheard of non-issue created by Wheel Gunner who will now desperately trawl google to find examples to support the claim that Y matters.
09-05-2015 , 06:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ganstaman
It's not unreasonable to say that feeling the gender opposite your sex is distressing, but I'd say it's having the sex opposite the gender you feel that's distressing. And there's a difference that anorexia helps illuminate. With anorexia, the problem is the feeling, not the body. Losing weight doesn't alleviate the distress felt by an anorexic.
Re-reading this while slightly more awake, I want to clarify something because I don't like my wording. A transgendered individual is not functionally impaired nor distressed by their gender identity. It's the mismatch with their sex that is distressing.

An anorexic individual is distressed by their perceived weight regardless of their actual body weight.

This isn't going to cleanly separate that which is and isn't mental illness because, as I've said, mental illness isn't a clearly defined category.
09-05-2015 , 08:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ganstaman
Re-reading this while slightly more awake, I want to clarify something because I don't like my wording. A transgendered individual is not functionally impaired nor distressed by their gender identity. It's the mismatch with their sex that is distressing.

An anorexic individual is distressed by their perceived weight regardless of their actual body weight.

This isn't going to cleanly separate that which is and isn't mental illness because, as I've said, mental illness isn't a clearly defined category.
Sure. This is a lot of work to try to show the subtle ways that being transgender is different from being anorexic, to allow us to call the latter a mental disorder while avoiding calling the former. The problem with all this work is that...there are other mental disorders. Its probably not a battle you can "win." So instead why not just take AlexM's view? Its clearly correct, uncontroversial to liberal-minded people, and achieves the same goals much more simply and cleanly.
09-05-2015 , 08:48 AM
Gender dysphoria is recognised as a disorder (it's in the DSM). There's a question about whether "mental illness" is a useful term.

I don't think it's controversial to refer to it as a disorder. The distinction is between it and other disorders like anorexia. And that distinction is incredibly important as it's why the two require very different forms of therapy.
09-05-2015 , 09:18 AM
Ok but we aren't having a thread about whether manic depression and borderline personality are both disorders and discussing the finer points of the different treatment approaches to each. It IS controversial to call it a disorder. Go on a Trans website and start telling them you have a disorder but hey its not like anorexia now let's focus on how to treat you.

Appeal to DSMIV will forever and always be laughable as well.
09-05-2015 , 09:22 AM
I guess my real question is: why is it helpful to agree to call it a disorder? Who does that benefit? Is it a tactic to try to get funding or something? If so, fine. The reason we need to call anorexia a disorder is because we sometimes have to involuntarily commit anorexics. It's hard to do that for a identity choice or whatever. Why do we need the word disorder for Trans people? Why can't we just say "are you happy great if not what can we do?"
09-05-2015 , 09:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bladesman87
Gender dysphoria is recognised as a disorder (it's in the DSM). There's a question about whether "mental illness" is a useful term.

I don't think it's controversial to refer to it as a disorder. The distinction is between it and other disorders like anorexia. And that distinction is incredibly important as it's why the two require very different forms of therapy.
dysphoria is a loaded term here because it means some sort of mental issue.

There's no reason why transgender people have to experience dysphoria is there? Growing up in a world that tells you there's something wrong with you is a problem but maybe if that goes away then transgender people are no more troubled by their gender/sexuality than anyone else.
09-05-2015 , 09:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vhawk01
Sure. This is a lot of work to try to show the subtle ways that being transgender is different from being anorexic, to allow us to call the latter a mental disorder while avoiding calling the former. The problem with all this work is that...there are other mental disorders. Its probably not a battle you can "win." So instead why not just take AlexM's view? Its clearly correct, uncontroversial to liberal-minded people, and achieves the same goals much more simply and cleanly.
I don't judge the validity of a view based on how much work it takes or how palatable it is to a segment of the population. Also, I never enter battles I don't think I can win. If you think there's a reason to consider transgender a mental disorder then lay it out.

Edit: reading your other post, I see you may not think it a mental disorder, so I misinterpreted you saying 'there are other mental disorders.' Anorexia was mentioned in OP's article and actually makes for a good analogy. We could compare transgenderism to other mental disorders, but I'm not sure we'd get more value out of that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bladesman87
Gender dysphoria is recognised as a disorder (it's in the DSM). There's a question about whether "mental illness" is a useful term.
I always hated this -- calling it gender dysphoria. We address dysphoria as dysphoria regardless of the cause. Why does this cause need a special name? I doubt the DSM will keep this term much longer.

Last edited by ganstaman; 09-05-2015 at 09:48 AM.
09-05-2015 , 10:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vhawk01
The reason we need to call anorexia a disorder is because we sometimes have to involuntarily commit anorexics.
We don't, and shouldn't, define mental disorders based on potential need for involuntary commitment. We study people meeting criteria for the potential disorders and see how they function over a period of time.
09-05-2015 , 10:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ganstaman
We don't, and shouldn't, define mental disorders based on potential need for involuntary commitment. We study people meeting criteria for the potential disorders and see how they function over a period of time.
Does the definition of mental disorder make any difference if they are minors? i.e. if the kid seems happy enough but the parents want them to get therapy because they think there is something wrong about it.
09-05-2015 , 10:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vhawk01
I guess my real question is: why is it helpful to agree to call it a disorder? Who does that benefit? Is it a tactic to try to get funding or something? If so, fine. The reason we need to call anorexia a disorder is because we sometimes have to involuntarily commit anorexics.
09-05-2015 , 10:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vhawk01
Ok but we aren't having a thread about whether manic depression and borderline personality are both disorders and discussing the finer points of the different treatment approaches to each. It IS controversial to call it a disorder. Go on a Trans website and start telling them you have a disorder but hey its not like anorexia now let's focus on how to treat you.

Appeal to DSMIV will forever and always be laughable as well.
The OP has a quote from the article that led to this thread which reads:

"It is a disorder similar to a “dangerously thin” person suffering anorexia who looks in the mirror and thinks they are “overweight,” said McHugh."

So it does seem pretty important to distinguish anorexia and whatever we should call it if I'm using an outdated term (I'm happy to use whatever the current accepted terms are). Because this doctor is saying they're similar and should have similar approaches to treatment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vhawk01
I guess my real question is: why is it helpful to agree to call it a disorder? Who does that benefit? Is it a tactic to try to get funding or something? If so, fine. The reason we need to call anorexia a disorder is because we sometimes have to involuntarily commit anorexics. It's hard to do that for a identity choice or whatever. Why do we need the word disorder for Trans people? Why can't we just say "are you happy great if not what can we do?"
I honestly don't know if it's useful to call it a disorder. It's certainly useful to have terms for it for clinical usage, literature, etc. Exactly what that term then is comes down to whatever function is has. If there's pragmatic value in distinction then we can come up with terms to reflect that.

It definitely seems awkward. If we don't consider it a serious mental health issue then we don't deal with it as a societal issue. If we use terms like "mentally ill" too liberally then we end up lumping it in with the insane. I think this is a problem with issues like depression and anxiety too. Depressed people don't want to be thought of as cripples but they also deserve an appreciation and the help that comes with that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chezlaw
dysphoria is a loaded term here because it means some sort of mental issue.

There's no reason why transgender people have to experience dysphoria is there? Growing up in a world that tells you there's something wrong with you is a problem but maybe if that goes away then transgender people are no more troubled by their gender/sexuality than anyone else.
As said, I'll abandon using the word dysphoria for any preferred word, but I've read the terms gender dysphoria and gender identity disorder to it so that's why I used it. Both are loaded in the ways pointed out.

What you say is interesting though, and comes back to what Ganstaman said about functional definitions. It's a "disorder" only if it causes distress. In that sense, I'm sure it's possible to be both trans and not be "disordered".

Speaking personally, I've had cognitive behavioural therapy with respect to my insomnia. As it was explained to me, they referred to it as a sleep disorder because the insomnia has caused me, at times, great difficulty in my day to day life. However, there's nothing necessarily wrong with a person who can function on four hours sleep. Or times I've been the other way, sleeping fourteen hours straight and then being up for a couple of days.
09-05-2015 , 10:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ganstaman
I always hated this -- calling it gender dysphoria. We address dysphoria as dysphoria regardless of the cause. Why does this cause need a special name? I doubt the DSM will keep this term much longer.
What's your preferred term?
09-05-2015 , 11:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chezlaw
Does the definition of mental disorder make any difference if they are minors? i.e. if the kid seems happy enough but the parents want them to get therapy because they think there is something wrong about it.
No, pretty much. I mean, there are times when one doesn't recognize they have a disorder that is causing dysfunction in their family, but their age isn't really relevant to this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bladesman87
What's your preferred term?
I don't think we need one related to gender identity. We don't have a lost-your-job dysphoria or actual-obesity dysphoria. With our current (lack) of knowledge, we define mental disorders by symptoms, not causes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bladesman87
What you say is interesting though, and comes back to what Ganstaman said about functional definitions. It's a "disorder" only if it causes distress. In that sense, I'm sure it's possible to be both trans and not be "disordered".
Well it should be more nuanced than that. Losing your job or going to jail makes most people distressed, but we don't consider those mental disorders. Defining mental disorders based on impaired functioning is a little simpler and cleaner (but not always), but current thinking also allows for significant distress in the absence of functional impairment. I'll think more about this while I avoid dancing at a wedding later today.
09-05-2015 , 12:26 PM
Okay, maybe where my confusion is is that "lost my job" isn't a mental state, it's an external reality. So jobless isn't a disorder, but it can certainly be a cause leading to depression or whatever. And when I said causing distress I did mean it more in line with dysfunction than simply emotion. Again, I use that because it was a way described to me by a CBT practitioner. I don't know if maybe she was putting it in layman's terms or if this is a term used differently by UK practitioners or maybe she just misspoke.
09-05-2015 , 03:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ganstaman
We don't, and shouldn't, define mental disorders based on potential need for involuntary commitment. We study people meeting criteria for the potential disorders and see how they function over a period of time.
What I meant was we don't have to call anorexia a disorder either. We can simply ask the anorexics if they feel distressed or harmed by their mental state.

Except some would say no, and then they would starve themselves to death. To make it politically palatable to forcibly feed them against their will, it is useful that everyone considers this a "disorder." It has practical value that we put negative connotations on anorexia and consider it a dysfunctional mental state.
09-05-2015 , 03:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ganstaman
I don't judge the validity of a view based on how much work it takes or how palatable it is to a segment of the population. Also, I never enter battles I don't think I can win. If you think there's a reason to consider transgender a mental disorder then lay it out.

Edit: reading your other post, I see you may not think it a mental disorder, so I misinterpreted you saying 'there are other mental disorders.' Anorexia was mentioned in OP's article and actually makes for a good analogy. We could compare transgenderism to other mental disorders, but I'm not sure we'd get more value out of that.
I dont think we should consider it a mental disorder, but mostly because its a useless label that doesnt add anything. And makes some people feel bad about themselves.

I actually dont think anorexia is a particularly great analogy, but thats besides the point. You think its a good analogy because you can easily defeat it, or think you can. My point about there being "other disorders" is that whatever tricks you use to defeat the anorexia analogy, someone determined to disparage transgender people will just find a DIFFERENT disorder that doesnt fail your tests. You are better off not playing. AlexM's post was perfect.

Your first paragraph is a bit weird considering we are talking about terms and definitions and semantics. What other end could you have in mind than "how much work they take or how palatable they are?" Why would you pick a term that is unpalatable to everyone and requires a ton of work over an alternative?
09-05-2015 , 09:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trolly McTrollson
Meh, people used to say the same thing about homosexuality. Comparing gender dysmorphia to something self-destructive like anorexia seems like a real stretch.
This.

but god forbid we look to the historical ramifications of pathologizing people in this way

b
09-06-2015 , 10:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wheel Gunner
Would you let your daughter share a toilet/shower/changing area with her?
Would you let your son share a toilet/shower/changing area with her?
09-06-2015 , 10:10 AM
the fact that 41 percent of transgenders commit suicide at least one time would point to some sort of mental imbalance
09-06-2015 , 12:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougSimpsonBMOC
the fact that 41 percent of transgenders commit suicide at least one time would point to some sort of mental imbalance
Or it could point to other external things. Which is backed up by a growing number of studies comparing people across societies with different levels of acceptance.

Also don't use the term transgenders. Its not a real term and carries an air of insult to it.
09-06-2015 , 01:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougSimpsonBMOC
the fact that 41 percent of transgenders commit suicide at least one time would point to some sort of mental imbalance
Damn bullied kids. Clearly their the ones with the problem...not the bullies themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by [Phill]
Or it could point to other external things. Which is backed up by a growing number of studies comparing people across societies with different levels of acceptance.
This.

Our society already has gone through this argument with gay people being pathologized.

Demonizing people has poor outcomes for those being demonized. Wow, who'd have thought?

But damn, if others would just assimilate to heteronormativity...

b
09-06-2015 , 06:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeyJ
Self hate + not thinking clearly = one really really bad comment. I hope you weren't quoting this as an argument of some sort.
I didn't think it was a bad comment. I also think it does make a valid argument. Gender reassignment surgery is not without risks, like any surgery. It is purely elective and irreversible. The surgery itself is not uncomplicated and there can be complications that require additional surgery, which is usually more difficult than the original surgery. Many mtf patients also have surgery to reduce the size of the adams apple, or reshape the cheek bones or chin. Some have procedures on vocal chords to raise the pitch of their voice.

We mock a perfectly healthy person who undergoes multiple risky plastic surgeries so they can look younger, until their face looks like it belongs to some other species. But we champion perfectly healthy people who undergo multiple risky surgeries so they can look more like another gender. We do this because we assume one is only motivated by a pathological vanity. Maybe, in a sense, they both are. Isn't most of the procedure really about outward appearance?
09-06-2015 , 06:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by revots33
We mock a perfectly healthy person who undergoes multiple risky plastic surgeries so they can look younger, until their face looks like it belongs to some other species. But we champion perfectly healthy people who undergo multiple risky surgeries so they can look more like another gender. We do this because we assume one is only motivated by a pathological vanity. Maybe, in a sense, they both are. Isn't most of the procedure really about outward appearance?
No
09-06-2015 , 09:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrChesspain
LOL at anyone who thinks that psychiatrists know as much about mental disorders as clinical psychologists or even clinical social workers.
Jerk.

      
m