The Tragic Shooting of 9 People at a Charleston Church - Page 6 - Politics and Economics

Phill we get it. It's not relevant. You clearly have no idea how to use probability. A muslim committing a mass shooting is still more likely to fall under a classical definition of terrorism than a white guy committing a mass shooting. Absolute total numbers are not relevant here.

What is your definition of terrorism?
Also for terrorism in the US your more likely than not to be killed by a non-Islamist act of terror than an Islamic act of terror...

Last edited by kimoser22; 06-19-2015 at 09:30 PM.

06-19-2015 , 09:43 PM

#128

Huehuecoyotl

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Why it's so hard to talk to white people about race.

Quote:

Further, we are centered in all matters deemed normal, universal, benign, neutral and good. Thus, we move through a wholly racialized world with an unracialized identity (e.g. white people can represent all of humanity, people of color can only represent their racial selves). Challenges to this identity become highly stressful and even intolerable. The following are examples of the kinds of challenges that trigger racial stress for white people:

Suggesting that a white person's viewpoint comes from a racialized frame of reference (challenge to objectivity);

People of color talking directly about their own racial perspectives (challenge to white taboos on talking openly about race);

People of color choosing not to protect the racial feelings of white people in regards to race (challenge to white racial expectations and need/entitlement to racial comfort);

People of color not being willing to tell their stories or answer questions about their racial experiences (challenge to the expectation that people of color will serve us);

A fellow white not providing agreement with one's racial perspective (challenge to white solidarity);

Receiving feedback that one's behavior had a racist impact (challenge to white racial innocence);

Suggesting that group membership is significant (challenge to individualism);

An acknowledgment that access is unequal between racial groups (challenge to meritocracy);

Being presented with a person of color in a position of leadership (challenge to white authority);

Being presented with information about other racial groups through, for example, movies in which people of color drive the action but are not in stereotypical roles, or multicultural education (challenge to white centrality).

Not often encountering these challenges, we withdraw, defend, cry, argue, minimize, ignore, and in other ways push back to regain our racial position and equilibrium. I term that push back white fragility.

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/7183710

06-19-2015 , 09:45 PM

#129

schu_22

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The reason the terrorism label conversation is a big deal is BECAUSE of what it reveals about the underlying social conditions. For ****s sake.

06-19-2015 , 09:49 PM

#130

ikestoys

banned

Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 94,424

what underlying social conditions caused this exactly?

06-19-2015 , 10:56 PM

#131

FlyWf

It's the other way

Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 58,097

Quote:

Originally Posted by ikestoys

what underlying social conditions caused this exactly?

I don't know, ikes. Why don't you take a wild ****ing guess.

06-20-2015 , 01:23 AM

#132

schu_22

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it ain't brain surgery, ikes

06-20-2015 , 06:57 AM

#133

ikestoys

banned

Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 94,424

You're going to need to be specific. Who and/or what exactly are you blaming this event on? Then feel free to say why.

06-20-2015 , 07:27 AM

#134

tomdemaine

Just tries harder

Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 20,065

Maybe it has something to do with a culture where your best friend can repeatedly talk about wanting to kill black people and the coming race war and you dismiss it because it's so commonplace in your life.

06-20-2015 , 07:33 AM

#135

ikestoys

banned

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Ok what culture is that? where do you think that culture exists? How prevalent is this culture?

06-20-2015 , 07:34 AM

#136

2/325Falcon

Conehead

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The UKIP meetings?

06-20-2015 , 07:43 AM

#137

13ball

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ikestoys

Ok what culture is that? where do you think that culture exists? How prevalent is this culture?

06-20-2015 , 08:18 AM

#138

champstark

aka starkwired

Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 14,838

Quote:

Originally Posted by ikestoys

what underlying social conditions caused this exactly?

he was talking about the social conditions re: labeling things as terrorism/not terrorism, NOT the actual act itself, I'm pretty sure

06-20-2015 , 08:24 AM

#139

tomdemaine

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Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 20,065

Quote:

A classmate told the Daily Beast that Roof "had that kind of Southern pride … He made a lot of racist jokes."

Quote:

The South Carolina and American flags flew at half-mast after the shooting. The Confederate flag did not. (Sean Rayford/Getty Images)

06-20-2015 , 08:45 AM

#140

DVaut1

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Seems as if we've reached the 'raised by wolves' part of the conversation about racism in America where right-wingers wonder aloud what southern pride is and if anyone could actually explain it and if anyone has heard of this 'southern pride' thing before. Everything old is new again, this was the 'oh is a perception in America that black people like basketball, never knew that, doubt Ron Paul did, think liberals must be making this stuff up?' part of the Ron Paul newsletters thread. That other flag on our statehouse? It's a Confederate Flag, you say? We should look into how that even got there, records are unclear, not even sure what it's doing there, but you must be some kind of race obsessed weirdo to even notice that!

Last edited by DVaut1; 06-20-2015 at 08:51 AM.

06-20-2015 , 09:32 AM

#141

tomdemaine

Just tries harder

Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 20,065

Quote:

Originally Posted by ikestoys

Ok what culture is that? where do you think that culture exists? How prevalent is this culture?

All of the candidates for leader of a party that represents half of the country don't dare call this a racial incident because of the backlash they would face so I'd say it's pretty ****ing prevalent.

06-20-2015 , 10:01 AM

#142

adios

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Quote:

Originally Posted by tomdemaine

What has Hillary and Barak stated about this case to be fair? As far as I can determine they have not commented about the guilt or innocence of the accused shooter either which includes his motivation, nor should they. I know you don't live in the USA so I'm guessing you aren't aware of the court rulings on pre-trial publicity. If you watch news reports where the cops make statements they will bend over backwards to use the term suspect. We know the guy committed the murders and is a racist but it would be completely irresponsible for public figures like POTUS candidates to comment on the guilt or innocence of this guy until his case is adjudicated.

Put another way, what should Jeb Bush for instance be stating about this case publicly?

06-20-2015 , 10:10 AM

#143

tomdemaine

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When asked directly do you think this was a racially motivated crime he shouldn't prevaricate and flub around 'well it was hateful but we can't know anyone's secret inner minds' he should state clearly "yes, this was a man driven to evil deeds purely by racial animus, and this animus is still prevalent in major parts of modern American society."

06-20-2015 , 10:41 AM

#144

adios

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Quote:

Originally Posted by tomdemaine

Have Obama and/or Hillary have stated such things? What part of not presuming guilt or innocence by public figures in order for defendants to receive fair treatment by the U.S. legal system don't you understand?

Btw Jeb Bush had the confederate flag removed from the Florida statehouse in 2001 fyi. I mean if you are stating that GOP POTUS should be supporting stricter gun laws, that is fine, that isn't commenting on the guilt or innocence of the suspect. If you are stating that the GOP POTUS should be condemning flying the confederate flag at state capitals, that is fine too. But for GOP POTUS candidates commenting on Roof's motivations for committing the murders at this point is clearly presuming guilt and thus would be completely irresponsible.

06-20-2015 , 10:47 AM

#145

tomdemaine

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Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 20,065

Quote:

"The fact that this took place in a black church obviously also raises questions about a dark part of our history. This is not the first time that black churches have been attacked, and we know that hatred across races and faiths poses a particular threat to our democracy and our ideals,"

Quote:

He quoted the remarks Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. made after four girls were killed in a church bombing in Birmingham in 1963:

Quote:

They say to each of us, black and white alike, that we must substitute courage for caution. They say to us that we must be concerned not merely about who murdered them, but about the system, the way of life, the philosophy which produced the murderers.

Even the first black president of the united states is tiptoeing around the racists, that's how bad it is but at least he's saying something.

06-20-2015 , 10:47 AM

#146

Low Key

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Quote:

Originally Posted by adios

"This was a hateful act perpetrated by a racist individual."

No need to call any one specific person guilty.

Easy, right?

And as a bonus, the terms "hateful" and "racist" are interchangeable!

06-20-2015 , 10:49 AM

#147

champstark

aka starkwired

Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 14,838

Quote:

South Carolina’s governor on Friday urged prosecutors to seek the death penalty for the shootings. “We will absolutely want him to have the death penalty,” Gov. Nikki Haley told NBC’s “Today” show.

This right here is why this **** happens. ****ing bloodthirsty morons. Makes me so angry.

Not to mention how inappropriate it is for her to say this in a public forum.

06-20-2015 , 10:57 AM

#148

tomdemaine

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Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 20,065

Quote:

Originally Posted by adios

Why is saying it's a hateful act ok but saying it's a racist act not ok? Seems a weird cut off point for irresponsibility.

06-20-2015 , 11:18 AM

#149

Money2Burn

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Quote:

Originally Posted by adios

Quote:

Originally Posted by DVaut1

DVaut nails it once again.

06-20-2015 , 11:20 AM

#150

Money2Burn

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Quote:

Originally Posted by tomdemaine

Why is saying it's a hateful act ok but saying it's a racist act not ok? Seems a weird cut off point for irresponsibility.

Because calling a white person racist without 100% undeniable proof is the worst act that a member of the human race can commit.

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