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Old 11-09-2016, 05:06 PM   #176
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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Originally Posted by goofyballer View Post
Trump: lol no
Clinton: also lol no for structural factors, but things like free college that she borrowed from Sanders would certainly have helped level out inequality for future generations
Sanders: possibly
Sanders: lol no, for the same reason Feckless Trump wasn't even president elect for 12 hours before one of his signature campaign pledges was shot down by McConnell.
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Old 11-09-2016, 05:08 PM   #177
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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A. Immigrants come here to fill jobs that nobody else will do. They work for less than minimum wage because that's still a better life than what they had in their home country. The Ford and Toyota factories in Kentucky and Tennessee and Michigan aren't staffed with illegal immigrants.

B. Globalization is here to stay. The forces of the US Government or the UK Government are not enough to reverse the will of the global business community. Technology and innovation have brought the world closer together and the world will continue to do business with each other more than ever, regardless of what individual governments want.
This. No way globalism ever ends. More jobs are in danger of automation and technology than are through some sweat shop in China or some dude swimming the Rio Grande.
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Old 11-09-2016, 05:10 PM   #178
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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The rest of your post is right, but this is wrong. What do you think immigrants come here for? And in case you were confused about the results of Brexit and last night, globalization is very much coming to an end.
Nice. Of course globalization and automation reduces jobs, but it is a flat out lie that there are no "economic immigrants". How much of each is to blame is debatable, but to simply dismiss one is dishonest.
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Old 11-09-2016, 05:12 PM   #179
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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...

I shouted down my old man for supporting Trump ...
Is it possible this is why he didn't listen to you?
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Old 11-09-2016, 05:14 PM   #180
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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I think this answers the question. They didn't make nearly a big enough deal out of the progress we've made over the last 8 years, both economic and social.

Like how many times did you hear HRC tout the unemployment rate, or adding jobs for 78 months straight, or coming closer to a balanced budget?

They ran on a campaign of "I'm not Trump". When people both want Trump and don't want you, that doesn't work.
I agree partially with this. But more than just tout the progress in the last 8 years, she should have addressed the people who felt left out of the progress and at least allay some of the fears that they were feeling.
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Old 11-09-2016, 05:15 PM   #181
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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Is it possible this is why he didn't listen to you?
I gave him a chance to speak. But I'm done being polite with people who buy into propaganda instead of y'know checking the BLS site.
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Old 11-09-2016, 05:17 PM   #182
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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A. Immigrants come here to fill jobs that nobody else will do. They work for less than minimum wage because that's still a better life than what they had in their home country. The Ford and Toyota factories in Kentucky and Tennessee and Michigan aren't staffed with illegal immigrants.

B. Globalization is here to stay. The forces of the US Government or the UK Government are not enough to reverse the will of the global business community. Technology and innovation have brought the world closer together and the world will continue to do business with each other more than ever, regardless of what individual governments want.
a) Would these jobs "that immigrants do that nobody else will" disappear if not for them? Or would people/companies/corporations pay more to have these jobs done? Could it possibly help wage inflation?

B) Quite possible true
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Old 11-09-2016, 05:20 PM   #183
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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it's been addressed but the reason she couldn't beat Trump (in the sense that Trump was very beatable) is that people didn't like her. People viewed the scandals, real or trumped up or imaginary, and her as a package. they didn't like that she decided it was her time to win. hard to blame her for wanting to be president. but at some point, there's a ton of baggage, and people didn't like that a person with that kind of baggage would ignore that fact and push for the presidency. she was the polar opposite of Obama in that effect
OK. But this is sort of like my response to well named about the right-wing media not really being separable from the core white nationalist project. The "baggage" that Clinton was perceived to have was not separable from the Deplorable Mindset. Her "baggage" was presented to and internalized through that filter.

Like, put diffrently yet still. We want to say well, Trump voters, they liked Trump for terrible reasons, all of them suggestive of super retrograde worldviews. Oh, but they hated Clinton for all these justifiable good reasons, her 'baggage' and her 'scandalous nature.'

What I'm saying: you probe just a little bit as to what the **** people even mean when they reference it and you just get the deplorable (((Soros))) Huma Benghazi traitor email globalist agenda Breitbart comment stuff.

"Her baggage" as some nebulous concept was just what deplorable swamp fever types horse traded in. Even the way you describe it is a complete euphemism meant to obscure natural human descriptions of things.
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Old 11-09-2016, 05:21 PM   #184
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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A. Immigrants come here to fill jobs that nobody else will do. They work for less than minimum wage because that's still a better life than what they had in their home country. The Ford and Toyota factories in Kentucky and Tennessee and Michigan aren't staffed with illegal immigrants.

B. Globalization is here to stay. The forces of the US Government or the UK Government are not enough to reverse the will of the global business community. Technology and innovation have brought the world closer together and the world will continue to do business with each other more than ever, regardless of what individual governments want.
Trade and business do not equal globalization. Trade and business and technology are not going anywhere unless we head into another Dark Ages. But globalization, the process of stripping democratic sovereignty and replacing elected officials with appointed technocrats, is coming to an end. Globalization, as defined by trade deals that hurt most of society and help a small number of society, are coming to an end. Open borders that allow wealthy, secluded 1%'s to benefit for reduced costs and cheaper labor while forcing everyone else to live with the social ramifications, is coming to an end.
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Old 11-09-2016, 05:25 PM   #185
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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Trade and business do not equal globalization. Trade and business and technology are not going anywhere unless we head into another Dark Ages. But globalization, the process of stripping democratic sovereignty and replacing elected officials with appointed technocrats, is coming to an end. Globalization, as defined by trade deals that hurt most of society and help a small number of society, are coming to an end. Open borders that allow wealthy, secluded 1%'s to benefit for reduced costs and cheaper labor while forcing everyone else to live with the social ramifications, is coming to an end.
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Old 11-09-2016, 05:27 PM   #186
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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That might be true @ goofy and zimmer. But the rich are getting richer while the rest get poorer. Will that change under President Trump? Maybe, but probably not. But we know damn well it would not have under Clinton. Sanders? Possibly.
did you look at clinton's tax plan and compare it to trump's? on stuff like marginal tax rates and inheritance tax hers do much more for the poor and middle class. hers is pretty progressive. his is the exact opposite.
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Old 11-09-2016, 05:29 PM   #187
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

Yeah the idea that Trump's tax cuts are going to bring economic prosperity or equality is a joke.

Like O.A.F said, this is about Americans realizing something is wrong but not understanding how to fix it. They are going back to the good old days and giving trickle-down economics another spin. It will, undoubtedly, end in tears.
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Old 11-09-2016, 05:33 PM   #188
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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Yeah the idea that Trump's tax cuts are going to bring economic prosperity or equality is a joke.

Like O.A.F said, this is about Americans realizing something is wrong but not understanding how to fix it. They are going back to the good old days and giving trickle-down economics another spin. It will, undoubtedly, end in tears.
This is pretty on the money.
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Old 11-09-2016, 05:35 PM   #189
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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did you look at clinton's tax plan and compare it to trump's? on stuff like marginal tax rates and inheritance tax hers do much more for the poor and middle class. hers is pretty progressive. his is the exact opposite.
It's much more about perception though. How many 2012 Obama/2016 Trump voters even looked at her website?
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Old 11-09-2016, 05:46 PM   #190
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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The election of Trump does not have to be mostly about economic populist outrage to have been caused by wider economic social conditions though.

As I said before average Trump voter is going to have little actual objective awareness of the actual social and economic conditions that create them.

They will have a sense that things are not fair, and then Trump/Fox or whoever provides the narratives to explain that sense.

Exploited classes being made to vote against their own self interests by having their exploitation mis represented is centre stage in political history. Its a common occurance.
OK, but this feels pretty squishy leftist stuff now. And I'm with you, to an extent. But the data about the economic depravity of Trump voters is pretty mixed. In a lot of ways, many (not all) were doing well.

To be glib, you seem to be doing what I described earlier: well, sure, they have the outward appearance of simple haters, but really they are exploited and subconsciously angry about it. They're really rebelling against the elites, no matter how much they fret about the future of America for white children. What they're really anxious about is economic stagnation, what they tell you and what the data says be damned.

I'll repeat it's a just-so-story. It's convenient for leftists since it builds into a bunch of Sanders type narratives about what the problems and prescriptions are from here. And it helps us live nicely with the white world and not spend our time hectoring 75% of white America about how they transgress over desirable democratic norms. And it solves a problem for the right-winger types to pile on about all the liberals who were mean to them and don't appreciate the hard-scrabble life of white guys in America, who must suffer from the indignities of PC culture. It ticks a bunch of convenient boxes for some elements of the left, the right, and people anywhere from a little to very exasperated being asked to put aside their white guy sensibilities. So here we are. I remain skeptical it's the best empirical explanation.
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Old 11-09-2016, 05:50 PM   #191
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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Trade and business do not equal globalization. Trade and business and technology are not going anywhere unless we head into another Dark Ages. But globalization, the process of stripping democratic sovereignty and replacing elected officials with appointed technocrats, is coming to an end. Globalization, as defined by trade deals that hurt most of society and help a small number of society, are coming to an end. Open borders that allow wealthy, secluded 1%'s to benefit for reduced costs and cheaper labor while forcing everyone else to live with the social ramifications, is coming to an end.
Globalization has massively benefited consumers in first world countries aka everybody who lives there. Every American nominally benefits by having iPhones and shoes and shirts made with labor that costs 15 cents an hour.

This comes at the cost of the jobs of some people, but it's a net positive for developed countries.
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Old 11-09-2016, 05:51 PM   #192
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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So when the overwhelming majority of the country supports a ban on the purchasing of guns by people on the terror watch list, and Republicans do nothing, that would be....?
Following the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments of the Constitution. You don't get to pick and choose when to follow due process. Convict them of a crime, then take away their Second Amendment rights.
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Old 11-09-2016, 05:54 PM   #193
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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Globalization has massively benefited consumers in first world countries aka everybody who lives there. Every American nominally benefits by having iPhones and shoes and shirts made with labor that costs 15 cents an hour.

This comes at the cost of the jobs of some people, but it's a net positive for developed countries.
I think you are missing the implication of "net positive". See O.A.'s posts for further detail.
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Old 11-09-2016, 06:05 PM   #194
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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Good posts, but implicit in all of this (and only with slight pushback from huehue) is the notion that what Trump really won on was "economic populism: take back Washington from the Billionaire class (i.e anti-Citizen's united and etc), tax the wealthy, rein in the banks, expand government services..." and the election results were a commentary on neoliberal capitalism.

I'd propose, but not strongly yet -- that this is projection.
Exit polls have Hillary winning by 10 points among people who said the economy was their number one issue. Trump won bigly with people who said immigration or terrorism was most important.

So, yeah, I'm pretty skeptical that economic populism was at the core of all this. Trump's hardcore supporters have always been hateful racist idiots, and they were likely just going along for the ride with the economic stuff. If I'm being kind "dey terk er jerbs" is kind of combining both, so maybe that's it.

That said, I do think he may have added a significant number beyond his base with economic populism. That's certainly possible, even if doesn't explain his core support.
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Old 11-09-2016, 06:08 PM   #195
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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Maybe Obama covered the weakness of Democratic party. It did well only when he was on the top of the ticket and pretty darn poorly when he is not. I would have wagered a ton of money that their is no way the Democrats wouldn't retain the WH with Obama's approval rating in thru mid 50s which seems to support this argument.
I'm not sure if either party has much of a natural advantage in presidential elections. Seems like they are mostly personality contests at this point.
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Old 11-09-2016, 06:13 PM   #196
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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I'm not sure if either party has much of a natural advantage in presidential elections. Seems like they are mostly personality contests at this point.

Could be. Pretty heavy burden to find someone that is competent and "entertaining." Presidents become such a big part of out lives like they are a favorite TV show character.
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Old 11-09-2016, 06:16 PM   #197
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

The bright side of this is that it should be abundantly clear to the DNC that rolling out an establishment candidate in the next election cycle is clearly not a recipe for success in this political climate.
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Old 11-09-2016, 06:16 PM   #198
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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The question that really needs answering is how HRC underperformed Obama by 7 million votes though. Wednesday morning quarterbacking aside, she ran a solid campaign with a completely justified "steady hand at the tiller" theme and she had the advantage of everything actually going pretty well, unemployment falling, GDP growing, etc. And you can't plausibly point to racism to explain why a black man got votes that she couldn't. My suggestion is that the story has to do with no one being willing to believe that things are going fine any more. They just know in their bones that everything's going to hell, so the only person they will vote for is the firebrand populist or the man on horseback or the dazzling orator. Anyone but a consensus-building technocratic caretaker.
Also agree with this. We wouldn't be having this whole discussion re: Trump's side -- racial anxiety vs. economic populism -- if Hillary had gotten as many votes as expected. It's interesting but maybe missing the main issue.

I'd have to look at the numbers harder but it seems to me Trump only mildly overperformed while Hillary massively underperformed. This was more about her than him.
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Old 11-09-2016, 06:16 PM   #199
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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Exit polls have Hillary winning by 10 points among people who said the economy was their number one issue. Trump won bigly with people who said immigration or terrorism was most important.

So, yeah, I'm pretty skeptical that economic populism was at the core of all this. Trump's hardcore supporters have always been hateful racist idiots, and they were likely just going along for the ride with the economic stuff. If I'm being kind "dey terk er jerbs" is kind of combining both, so maybe that's it.

That said, I do think he may have added a significant number beyond his base with economic populism. That's certainly possible, even if doesn't explain his core support.
Exit polls were the worst exit polls in history, according to the actual results, but let's go ahead and continue to cite the exit polls anyway.

Checks out?
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Old 11-09-2016, 06:18 PM   #200
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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The question that really needs answering is how HRC underperformed Obama by 7 million votes though. Wednesday morning quarterbacking aside, she ran a solid campaign with a completely justified "steady hand at the tiller" theme and she had the advantage of everything actually going pretty well, unemployment falling, GDP growing, etc.
Isn't that just the obvious, she isn't as likeable to large parts of the modern democratic base? I think there is always a kneejerk desire to overreact to losing, but I'm not sure trump winning the EC and losing(?) the popular vote tells us anything we didn't know before the election: being a race baiting buffoon is not disqualifying for ~45% of the electorate.
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