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Old 11-09-2016, 11:44 AM   #76
Roger Clemens
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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Dude if you're an American the idea that this is the greatest place on earth is drilled into your brain almost from birth. The average American gives zero ****s about how the rest of the world handled social welfare problems. We just use prisons.
Maybe you could plot prison population vs. Dem great society programs over time.
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Old 11-09-2016, 11:50 AM   #77
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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Booker, maybe? One of the Castros?
I don't see the Castros as being on the Presidential level. Hope I'm wrong.

Booker is a possibility, although he seems pretty neoliberal and establishment-y. Not sure how that's going to play in this environment.

Warren and Mark Cuban are the other two I would bet on. I'm not sure if Cuban wants to run but I don't think people are taking him seriously enough.
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Old 11-09-2016, 11:54 AM   #78
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

I wonder if the Medicare expansion is going to get repealed as well.
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Old 11-09-2016, 11:54 AM   #79
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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Maybe you could plot prison population vs. Dem great society programs over time.
Pirates and global warming too
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Old 11-09-2016, 11:57 AM   #80
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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Thinking about it, I think they need to give up that pie much more directly. They have to share more of the pie at source
I have thought for a few years the democrats should try proposing a revenue-neutral tax plan. Just directly tax the rich more to give the middle class a tax break.

Simple, popular, and avoids all of the "big government" arguments.
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Old 11-09-2016, 12:00 PM   #81
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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The left did wake up to this - Bernie. The center-left running the Democratic party did not, and got everyone out of the way for Clinton.

I mean, damn, even Biden could have spoken to income inequality pretty well. He's an establishment guy, but he hasn't personally enriched himself through his political career and doesn't come from a lot of wealth or anything. He is a good speaker when he's got that self-righteous anger.
Biden would have waffle crushed, but his political infrastructure overlapped with Hillary, and pre-e-mails she still looked too strong to beat from the center in the primary...even Martin O'Malley beats Trump
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Old 11-09-2016, 12:09 PM   #82
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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I'm not sure if x wants to run but I don't think people are taking him seriously enough.
Who else could we put in as x here a year ago?
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Old 11-09-2016, 12:11 PM   #83
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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Biden would have waffle crushed, but his political infrastructure overlapped with Hillary, and pre-e-mails she still looked too strong to beat from the center in the primary...even Martin O'Malley beats Trump
I keep hearing this derp and similar.

Yes, Bernie was polling good heads up vs Trump. This completely ignores any vetting that would have happened and his drop as people learned more about him.

Additionally and MORE importantly: HRC was polling good vs Trump after the 3rd debate.

White nationalism won the day. Bernie would not attract that crowd.
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Old 11-09-2016, 12:17 PM   #84
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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White nationalism won the day. Bernie would not attract that crowd.
Bernie had the anti-"trade" and "keep jobs here" part down.

But one thing that might have hurt him (given that we just elected an antisemite) is that he's Jewish.
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Old 11-09-2016, 12:44 PM   #85
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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Its called raising taxes not lowering them.

You are also ignoring that the average western worker is making more, producing more etc even with all this competition, they are making a bigger and bigger and bigger pie, yet the amount of pie they receive is relatively static.

I wonder why these people are pissed off?

If you made a smaller pie but shared it more equitably, actually more people could end up with more pie.
Here's the wage growth numbers for anyone curious. Funny how lots of delusional neo-liberals think this election is down to xenophobia and not the fact that the vast majority of people have gotten screwed by the establishment for decades. Not being part of the establishment is pretty much the only qualification trump needed to win this election.

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Old 11-09-2016, 12:58 PM   #86
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

bobman, thanks for the good posts.

Bernie fans, wondering if Bernie would have won is a thought exercise. The character attacks on Clinton become political attacks on Bernie ("emails" become "socialism" and Bernie spends the whole campaign on his back foot trying to give an educated explanation of Democratic Socialism as a concept like he did in the primaries while Republicans are like "LOL MAGAAAAA"), maybe he fades them and wins, maybe he loses anyway and in that hypothetical world everyone's like "GOD YOU IDIOTS NOMINATED THIS ***** EXTREMIST WINGNUT INSTEAD OF THE CENTRIST THAT WOULD HAVE CLEANED THIS UP", much like it's easy to be like "GOD YOU IDIOTS NOMINATED CLINTON, WHAT IS THE MATTER WITH YOU" in this world where she ran a campaign that was, depending on which measuring stick you want to use, a 3:1 to 6:1 favorite on election day.

We know now, given that Clinton lost, that nominating literally anyone else might have worked out better, but it also might have gotten us the same result.
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Old 11-09-2016, 01:04 PM   #87
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

goofyballer: I agree that it's difficult to argue counterfactuals but it seems hard not to conclude that Clinton was always a pretty flawed candidate. Sure, some of that isn't her fault, it's the result of decades of right-wing derpy conspiracy theories. But some of it is definitely her fault, and the fault of the Democratic party which was too complacent in its willingness to nominate her without too much consideration of those factors.
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Old 11-09-2016, 01:08 PM   #88
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

Oh for sure, Clinton was flawed, don't think anyone here ever said she wasn't. But so was Bernie! I know you all remember how much Obama was called a socialist in 2008 and 2012, what do you think was going to happen when an actual self-described socialist ran?
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Old 11-09-2016, 01:08 PM   #89
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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"GOD YOU IDIOTS NOMINATED CLINTON, WHAT IS THE MATTER WITH YOU"
To be clear, my criticism isn't aimed at all people who nominated Clinton, only the ones who explicitly said they preferred Bernie but were voting Clinton out of fear (which I recall reading on here). This is what happens when you think with fear instead of rationality. Imo it should have been obvious that Hillary is the antithesis of what people wanted in this current environment where so many people loathe the establishment.

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We know now, given that Clinton lost, that nominating literally anyone else might have worked out better, but it also might have gotten us the same result.
It very well might have.
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Old 11-09-2016, 01:13 PM   #90
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

It wasn't clear till about HRC locked up the nom what the environment was re: outsiders. Trump wasn't immediately decipherable as the victor due to outside street cred. No way to know Bernie woulda gone up against him instead of a GOPe who just screams "socialist" for 12 months and wins

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Bernie had the anti-"trade" and "keep jobs here" part down.

But one thing that might have hurt him (given that we just elected an antisemite) is that he's Jewish.
yeah, (((Bernie))) doesn't play well with the crowd coming into the white house.

Curious if trump's son keeps retweeting white nationalists and neo-nazis while daddy's in office
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Old 11-09-2016, 01:14 PM   #91
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

I mean, the head-to-head polls during the primary had Hillary up like 2 points on Trump. Final result not too far from that. Same head-to-head polls had Bernie up like 10.

There's no way to know how things would have turned out, but I have a hard time believing Trump would have made up all that ground. I didn't even vote for Bernie but I think it's highly likely he would have won.
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Old 11-09-2016, 01:15 PM   #92
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

i have two pretty big words to add. ROSS PEROT. just sayin
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Old 11-09-2016, 01:17 PM   #93
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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Oh for sure, Clinton was flawed, don't think anyone here ever said she wasn't. But so was Bernie! I know you all remember how much Obama was called a socialist in 2008 and 2012, what do you think was going to happen when an actual self-described socialist ran?
I worried about the socialism attack on Bernie myself, and although I voted for him enthusiastically I also think he has his flaws. But, it seems clear, probably only in retrospect, that his flaws were a better fit for the election than Clinton's. So I think it's reasonable to think he would have done better, but it's also reasonable to say that hindsight is 20/20. It was hard to imagine Trump actually ever being a serious contender.
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Old 11-09-2016, 01:19 PM   #94
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

Why is Donna Brazile still head of the DNC?

The democrats have to get out of the illusion that they are not frauding every industry. Bernie should have won. Hopefully his platform will be accepted in 2 years and Democrats can have a shot.
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Old 11-09-2016, 01:19 PM   #95
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

It was clear as day before HRC even announced her candidacy that she had nothing to pitch and was an abominable "fit for the election." That's not unfair hindsight. The Democrats and she personally need to be held to account for that.
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Old 11-09-2016, 01:20 PM   #96
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

You slappies are going to try to nominate Hillary again next time around, aren't you. Assuming we still have elections in 2020.
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Old 11-09-2016, 01:20 PM   #97
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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I'm not saying they want Trump, just that they can wait him out and get another Obama etc. I disagree we're risking the "whole pie making machine" because of Trump. And I wouldn't hold your breath for the elite to change from centrist pro business.



Sounds about right.
I am not just talking about Trump though, I am talking about Brexit, which was a massive case of irrationality, of turkeys voting for Christmas.

It also looks like Europe is going to be swept along in a tide of elections with a similar wing nut profile.

I am pretty sure the Elites wanted UK to stay in the EU and dont want all the unknown unknowns that come with collective Wing Nuts in Power.

The point is this is a trend across the whole western developed world.

Need to stop being so America#195

Maybe the Elites can wait Trump out, but who knows what damage he can do, and who knows what the political culture will be in 4/8 years.

Just give up a likkle ickle bit of pie, sort it out, go back to consensus driven democratic centrist politics.
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Old 11-09-2016, 01:27 PM   #98
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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You slappies are going to try to nominate Hillary again next time around, aren't you. Assuming we still have elections in 2020.
I'm assuming there's absolutely no chance of that happening, and ffs it better not happen :P
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Old 11-09-2016, 01:29 PM   #99
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

@cphoya Just like Sanders and Sanders supporters promoting essentially some of the same rhetoric that those of us who are old enough to remember that conservatives have floated for a quarter of a century. You can point your fingers all you want. But those of us who left leaning or moderates need to get past that all and find common ground in the next four years so we can run a strong candidate.
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Old 11-09-2016, 01:30 PM   #100
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

Oh I agree completely, Paul. That's not gonna happen by eliding blame or misapprehending the reasons for this abject and comprehensive failure.
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