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Old 11-09-2016, 09:42 AM   #51
stinkubus
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

Hard to see Trump's rust belt coalition clamoring for government health care. I'm legit worried we need to sweat Social Security and Medicare as we know it.
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Old 11-09-2016, 09:47 AM   #52
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

The point is that the Elites seem just as shook by Brexit and Trump.

If they dont like it they need to reconfigure the social contract and start giving up a bigger share of their pie.

They have ****ing plenty of pie to go round.
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Old 11-09-2016, 09:49 AM   #53
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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I'm thinking more in terms of how long it takes to A) undo the damage Trump does and B) get back everything that was lost, such as universal access to health insurance and C) Make the progress on social issues and income inequality that we would have already made.
I guess it depends if we can find a youthful candidate who is as charismatic as Obama and makes it clear via their platform that income equality is an important issue that needs to be addressed in a way where the divide in Sanders' left leaning voters and voters who are centrist can be fixed.
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Old 11-09-2016, 10:02 AM   #54
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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Exactly. Obama got exactly what he deserved for buckling to the Insurance Corporations and introducing a republican health care policy which nobody wanted in the first place other than the corporations.
Obama is gonna leave with close to record high favorability though.
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Old 11-09-2016, 10:05 AM   #55
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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The point is that the Elites seem just as shook by Brexit and Trump.

If they dont like it they need to reconfigure the social contract and start giving up a bigger share of their pie.

They have ****ing plenty of pie to go round.
But that's close to the opposite of Trumps platform.
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Old 11-09-2016, 10:07 AM   #56
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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Hard to see Trump's rust belt coalition clamoring for government health care. I'm legit worried we need to sweat Social Security and Medicare as we know it.
I think this is wrong. The Trump voters want more benefits.
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Old 11-09-2016, 10:07 AM   #57
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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Both parties got their asses kicked. The establishment got their asses kicked.
Very much this. It should serve as a wake-up call to the two-party establishment system.

They both will probably ignore it though.
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Old 11-09-2016, 10:08 AM   #58
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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But that's close to the opposite of Trumps platform.
Yea obviously, but Trump voters are not aware of the social conditions that create them or they would not be Trump voters, its a truism.

The point is that Elites only need give up a relatively small share of their pie to remove/mitigate those conditions.

Trump on the other hand would be dumb to actually do anything that stopped people being angry and willing to fall in line with a fairer status quo/consensus.

Last edited by O.A.F.K.1.1; 11-09-2016 at 10:13 AM.
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Old 11-09-2016, 10:09 AM   #59
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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It's an enormous win for the tax cuts you love so much. If he gets any sort of meaningful infrastructure bill the deficits will be so large that our balance of payments won't shift, so he probably won't "win" on trade. Hopefully everyone remembers this in four years.
I do worry about huge deficits which I think is likely.
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Old 11-09-2016, 10:10 AM   #60
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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I think this is wrong. The Trump voters want more benefits [for themselves and not for lazy minorities] .
FYP

Get ready to hear the words 'chauvinistic welfare' a lot.
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Old 11-09-2016, 10:14 AM   #61
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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Yea obviously, but Trump voters are not aware of the social conditions that create them or they would not be Trump voters, its a truism.

The point is that Elites only need give up a relatively small share of their pie to remove/mitigate those conditions.
How big of a slice of the pie are we talking about though? Federal government spending in the US is like 20% of GDP. Say we add 10 percentage points for state and local and then bump that number 10 points to 40%. The UK government spends 40% of its GDP, and they've got crazies giving them Brexit. Say we bump it another 10%. Then we're level with France, where Marine Le Pen is leading in most polls for next year's presidential election. I haven't researched this, but I'm pretty confident France is the developed country with the biggest government, so we're pushing up towards a ceiling here.
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Old 11-09-2016, 10:16 AM   #62
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

RIP
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Old 11-09-2016, 10:22 AM   #63
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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How big of a slice of the pie are we talking about though? Federal government spending in the US is like 20% of GDP. Say we add 10 percentage points for state and local and then bump that number 10 points to 40%. The UK government spends 40% of its GDP, and they've got crazies giving them Brexit. Say we bump it another 10%. Then we're level with France, where Marine Le Pen is leading in most polls for next year's presidential election. I haven't researched this, but I'm pretty confident France is the developed country with the biggest government, so we're pushing up towards a ceiling here.
Thinking about it, I think they need to give up that pie much more directly. They have to share more of the pie at source.

E.g. They have to share more of profits derived from their workforce = raising wages.

This also has numerous political advantages as it does not enter into big government, taxation etc.

Elites have to realise they cant pie hog so much without potential blow backs that pose risks to the whole pie making machine.

This type of re-negotiation of the social contract has been going on since the industrial revolution. Most of social democracy/social welfare has been won on the back of keeping the pie machine stable.

Last edited by O.A.F.K.1.1; 11-09-2016 at 10:28 AM.
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Old 11-09-2016, 10:37 AM   #64
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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I think this is wrong. The Trump voters want more benefits.
Trump voters were duped into thinking he gives any ****s about them or the common man. E.g. they probably didn't want Trump the maverick outsider to pick an administration full of corporate lobbyists.
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Old 11-09-2016, 10:48 AM   #65
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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Originally Posted by O.A.F.K.1.1 View Post
Thinking about it, I think they need to give up that pie much more directly. They have to share more of the pie at source.

E.g. They have to share more of profits derived from their workforce = raising wages.

This also has numerous political advantages as it does not enter into big government, taxation etc.

Elites have to realise they cant pie hog so much without potential blow backs that pose risks to the whole pie making machine.

This type of re-negotiation of the social contract has been going on since the industrial revolution. Most of social democracy/social welfare has been won on the back of keeping the pie machine stable.
Meh if the axis is along white grievences then universal benefits aren't going to be effective. It's not just they want more of the pie, they also don't want minorities to have more. Trump may propose more benefits like child care benefits but they're going to have to be structured in a way that the benefits go to whites, which in America, is tax breaks.
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Old 11-09-2016, 10:50 AM   #66
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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wages.
Elites have to realise they cant pie hog so much without potential blow backs that pose risks to the whole pie making machine.
.
But nothing Trump says he'll do really dangers the elite. They aren't undocumented or unable to afford healthcare and will basically be the last people to be impacted by incompetent government.

What do we think non college educated Trump voters actually want and is it remotely feasible?

Last edited by dessin d'enfant; 11-09-2016 at 10:57 AM.
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Old 11-09-2016, 10:59 AM   #67
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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Trump voters were duped into thinking he gives any ****s about them or the common man. E.g. they probably didn't want Trump the maverick outsider to pick an administration full of corporate lobbyists.
His cabinet will be interesting. At least lobbyists might have subject matter competence which is not the worst case scenario.
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Old 11-09-2016, 11:09 AM   #68
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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But nothing Trump says he'll do really dangers the elite. They aren't undocumented or unable to afford healthcare and will basically be the last people to be impacted by incompetent government.

What do we think non college educated Trump voters actually want and is it remotely feasible?
I dont think the Eilte want trade restrictions or basically the massive unpredictability of a Trump presidency.

Ultimately they want a very centrist business as usual President, they did not get this.

I think Trump voters just wanted to go **** you in essence.
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Old 11-09-2016, 11:16 AM   #69
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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I dont think the Eilte want trade restrictions or basically the massive unpredictability of a Trump presidency.

Ultimately they want a very centrist business as usual President, they did not get this.
I'm not saying they want Trump, just that they can wait him out and get another Obama etc. I disagree we're risking the "whole pie making machine" because of Trump. And I wouldn't hold your breath for the elite to change from centrist pro business.

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think Trump voters just wanted to go **** you in essence.
Sounds about right.
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Old 11-09-2016, 11:19 AM   #70
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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So when the overwhelming majority of the country supports a ban on the purchasing of guns by people on the terror watch list, and Republicans do nothing, that would be....?
I have a question about the whole no fly no buy thing. If someone is on the terror watch list do you support stripping their ability to access social media and the internet as well?
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Old 11-09-2016, 11:24 AM   #71
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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Originally Posted by dessin d'enfant View Post
What do we think non college educated Trump voters actually want and is it remotely feasible?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ems-ambitious/

Every dream possible fulfilled.

Seems feasible, amirite?
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Old 11-09-2016, 11:24 AM   #72
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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Originally Posted by O.A.F.K.1.1 View Post
Thinking about it, I think they need to give up that pie much more directly. They have to share more of the pie at source.

E.g. They have to share more of profits derived from their workforce = raising wages.

This also has numerous political advantages as it does not enter into big government, taxation etc.

Elites have to realise they cant pie hog so much without potential blow backs that pose risks to the whole pie making machine.

This type of re-negotiation of the social contract has been going on since the industrial revolution. Most of social democracy/social welfare has been won on the back of keeping the pie machine stable.
OK, but willing a spontaneous renegotiation of the social contract is not really a policy. "Neoliberal capitalism is horrible, and the only thing that can save it is a spontaneous renegotiation of the social contract" is a pretty nihilistic message, because it is the same as "Neoliberal capitalism is horrible and there's nothing you can do about it."
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Old 11-09-2016, 11:32 AM   #73
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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Our poor people are better off than billions of other people in the world. Ask yourself, would you rather be poor in the US or in China? The idea that the US economic system hurts our people is asinine to me, considering I've seen how other poor people live in other countries. Not to mention the US basically invented the middle class in China. This is not to say the current system is perfect, neither is yours, but until you can make a compelling argument that a system is better, other than in theory, I do not think you will convince many Americans this change is needed.
So in your opinion its the current System or China? Nothing inbetween huh?

You do not seem aware that in the vast majority of wealthy western countries, a significant chunk of the population are not on food stamps, going bankrupt because of health care, and working for $6 an hour just to survive. That's just the start. Are Americans really so ignorant to the rest of the world? Wow.
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Old 11-09-2016, 11:35 AM   #74
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

Dude if you're an American the idea that this is the greatest place on earth is drilled into your brain almost from birth. The average American gives zero ****s about how the rest of the world handled social welfare problems. We just use prisons.
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Old 11-09-2016, 11:38 AM   #75
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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Funny, you'd think this would've happened when the next election actually did come around in 2012.
Full detrimental inpact of o-care had not taken effect by 2012, as designed by its writers. Also, Romney was not the candidate to repeal/replace o-care, as he was behind MA health insurance.

O-care was created 100% by a dem controlled house and filibuster proof senate, who are 100% responsible as not one rep member of congress voted for it. It was clearly the most salient legislative point of this election, with announced skyrocketing premiums clearly correlated with Hillary's drop in the polls and betting odds immediately prior to Comey letter.
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