You've made an argument that their deaths are predictable (OK, whatever, fine, conceded). You then said that 'certainly doesn't make Israel reckless,' but that is again a non-sequitur. Some entirely reckless behaviors result in many predictable deaths. I don't get your argument yet again, but mind you, I think I understand all of the words and stuff.

fair on all accounts

Plus those defensive systems are paid for by the US taxpayer. Hamas wants as many of their children killed as possible as this all gets on the news. Poor Poor Palestine. Only one side to blame and its Hamas

I didn't realize I was one of "you guys"

Live and learn I suppose.

Also, it'd be nice if you didn't jump to other conclusions. I didn't say Israel had no right to defend herself. My point was that Israel's response is disproportionate.

I was using you guys in a general way, no reason to take it personally.

Fine, with respect to your second point, what would you wish Israel to do?

http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/gamin...-and-palestine

I thought this was a well written article. It may interest some of you as well

Just to round this out so I can do something else tonight, I do want to make it equally unequivocally clear here when I say that it is wrong to target civilians or recklessly fire ammunition places where you know you will kill alot of them, I will also unequivocally say:

- Hamas seems like absolutely terrible, scum of the Earth awful
- Israel has a great deal of my sympathy and their predicament is incredibly difficult to solve. By the same token, Palestinians also have a great deal of my sympathy and I stay out of the normal Israel/Palestinian threads for a reason
- #riverman is half right, in that there are no good answers and everyone involved sucks. I disagree this is really a religious conflict and see no reason to cast blame there, for this.
- I mostly got involved to guide David, sincerely, into why I didn't think Daniel's post was especially clever or novel and basically just ignored the entire debate in favor of 'Hamas REALLY are *******s" which doesn't get anyone very far.

Dvaut,

What you've done is looked at the numbers of dead on each side and decided that because the Palestinian dead number is so much higher than the Israeli dead number that the Israelis must be either wanton or reckless. That's a pretty bush league assessment of the situation and is fairly simple to explain because the actual fighting is taking place in Gaza and Hamas is a big fan of using the Palestinian people as human shields for its military activities. It is most certainly not proof that Israel must be acting wantonly, recklessly, or both. Glad I could help clear things up for you.

I mean, you're phrasing that sarcastically, so I'm assuming you think that woul be an inappropriate response, which is a starting point. The starting point of "Israel isn't justified in blowing up an entire town to eliminate these tunnels" isn't far removed from "Israel is justified in blowing up a UN shelter to eliminate these tunnels." Which is not to suggest that Israel should sit on its hands and do nothing.

And now it's gif time.

Holding off on the gifs because #****justgotreal.

It doesn't really work like that.

Everyone has to take responsibility, and blame, for their own actions.

Just because A has done something bad does not mean B can do whatever they want to C without having any responsibility.

Hamas may provoke, and be happy, that innocent civilians are being killed as it furthers their cause. That does not mean Israeli authorities has no responsibility for killing those innocent civilians.

WHAT NOW ISRAEL, I just killed all the terrorists 0 civilian deaths, come at me br0s.

Bombing Hamas they way Israel is doing is like trying to get rid of a hangover by drinking heavily.

Sure, you make a valid point. However, I think that it's really tough when the UN shelters harbor rockets...what should Israel do? It's a really ****ty situation when the UN is importantly sheltering civilians but there are Hamas operatives shooting rockets from that same building. The UN has also now multiple times handed off rockets that it found in its buildings to Hamas. So yeah, it's a pretty crappy spot to be in if you want to stop the rocket attacks but not kill innocent people.

wat?

This is nothing but a religious conflict. The religious historical significance of the area is pretty much the only reason this thing is happening.

Well, they get to do this:

Of course Israel is targeting civilians. You can accept civilian deaths as collateral damage but those human shields are part of the target.

Israel's argument is they are not responsible for killing the human shields they knew were there because they didn't or them there. It's basic propaganda. They know they are killing civilians with every strike into schools sms apartment buildings.

Now maybe you want to make the argument it's worth creating support for Hamas and another generation of soldiers inspired to kill Israelis for killing their relatives because apparently there ate weapons at that school. But you don't get to pretend reality is what you want it to be.

As I said way backat the start of the thread, maybe Israel should stop doing what Hamas wants them to do? This is so basic I don't think Sun Tzu even included a chapter on not doing what your enemy wants you to do.

I think the first order of business should be to strip Hamas of legitimate political power.
The current conflict does nothing to address that issue.

There are more moderate parties in Palestine that don't have the destruction of the state of Israel as a top priority.

DVaut is right. It's about the land. Religion is a pretext here to get people all riled up.

I didn't do that at all. I said this, instead:

Well, the NYT said that, which I cited. If that's wrong, OK, let's discuss.

Anyway, note what's in there:

- a relative percentage of dead civilians versus Hamas fighting force

*Not* there:

- dead Palestinians outnumber dead Israelis

I think it is proof, all on its own, that it is indicative of reckless behavior. To the question that Hamas uses Palestinians as human shields, ergo Israel is not responsible when they die: I find it wholly uncompelling. At principle, punishment, retribution and deterrence is something that should be directed at the guilty party and not randomly inflicted on whoever the guilty party happens to be hiding behind. I adhere strictly to the axiom that to allow the killing of the innocent in such cases where the guilty hide amongst them would simply be to commit a crime against innocents and would not be an act of justice. By analogy, law enforcement is certainly never allowed such leeway; we never allow any normal person such discretion. A military is no exception.

Said no one to you, ever, I suspect.

Abbas and Fatah are really the only other party with any power and they are thought of as a complete joke by the Palestinians because of how corrupt they are. I'm not sure how Israel can force the Palestinian people to elect a more moderate and honest government. If anything, Israeli involvement would drive them in the other direction.

Nonsense.

Why is that particular patch of land important enough to commit the horrible acts that both sides do?

It's all about religion.

Civilian deaths of any people is heartbreaking! The nukes on Japan caused over 200K civilians to die. This could have been prevented if Japan laid down their weapons. The civilians deaths in Gaza can be stopped if Hamas lays down their weapons. Maybe I am missing something, but what benefit do the people of Gaza, or Hamas for the matter gain by being armed?

Pretty sure Hamas actually wants Israel to do nothing and the civilian shields are like a backup plan that makes it so Israel is in a no-win situation, from a publicity standpoint.

I mean you really think Hamas wants Israel to kill them and all of their families? Maybe the crazies on the fringe, but the mainstream leaders of Hamas aren't that kind of crazy.

Speaking of which: