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Scottish Independence Debate Scottish Independence Debate

09-15-2014 , 05:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by O.A.F.K.1.1
The whole media is biased thing is straight out of the Putin playbook which Alex has been studying really really hard.
Do you even live in Scotland? It really is not even debatable whether they have been bias or not. Even just tonight alone, Sky news interviewed Ian Wood whos in the no camp, then some exec from the shipyards in the no camp, then some pompous 25 yr old in the no camp before returning to the studio where they had a tory mp in the no camp. At no point did we see any one from the yes side in the 30 min segment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Husker
Ah, so the NUJ are in on the big conspiracy as well now?

Also, your statement about only asking one side challenging questions doesn't seem to add up given people I know who are big Yes voters are all over my facebook page posting links of youtube clips etc of Better Together politicians etc in this very situation.
I guess we'll just take your word for it then? I follow SNP, Yes Scotland, Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmond on Twitter and I haven't seen any, surely this is exactly the type of video they would post?. I saw a video where the BBC cut out and came back on air with the yes supporters behind them having been moved, but I didn't think much of it, there could have been a reason for that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by [Phill]
Something like six of the seven Scottish newspapers back no. But having a point of view and being biased are different things.
No ones saying the papers having a view is being bias, and its not 6/7.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Husker


Salmond is basically okay with encouraging this sort of thing.
When did Salmond ever say he was ok with this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by [Phill]
Blaming the media when they talk bad about you is like stage one of becoming a dictator.

I just found out my aunt and uncle (who is about as Scottish as you could imagine) are going to leave Scotland if the alternative is living in a country run by Salmond.

I wonder how many other middle class highly skilled intelligent people will move south too
.
lololol
09-15-2014 , 05:39 PM
Quote:
Do you even live in Scotland? It really is not even debatable whether they have been bias or not. Even just tonight alone, Sky news interviewed Ian Wood whos in the no camp, then some exec from the shipyards in the no camp, then some pompous 25 yr old in the no camp before returning to the studio where they had a tory mp in the no camp. At no point did we see any one from the yes side in the 30 min segment.
Sky New biased =! Whole media is biased. Cmon son. Its obvious that some elements of the media will have bias in either direction, fwiw I saw a BBC report where they did a vox pop and everyone they talked too was a No voter, BBC obviously biased for NO LDO.

Anyone who genuinely thinks there is no debate about the degree of bias across the media as a whole is probably the kinda person who would make posts in bold because they think it gives their posts more authority.

Last edited by O.A.F.K.1.1; 09-15-2014 at 05:44 PM.
09-15-2014 , 05:55 PM
Sorry can anyone summarise the last couple of pages for me? I've been down landan town since Friday and there seems to be a lot to take in.
09-15-2014 , 05:57 PM
well here's a pretty clear example of the bias



Salmond's answer




i do think the amount of bias has been blown out of proportion but you can't deny it's not there
09-15-2014 , 06:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by O.A.F.K.1.1
Sky New biased =! Whole media is biased. Cmon son. Its obvious that some elements of the media will have bias in either direction, fwiw I saw a BBC report where they did a vox pop and everyone they talked too was a No voter, BBC obviously biased for NO LDO.

Anyone who genuinely thinks there is no debate about the degree of bias across the media as a whole is probably the kinda person who would make posts in bold because they think it gives their posts more authority.
lol there bolded to separate ur posts from mine because I quoted like 5 posts.

Where u from? unless u live in Scotland u cant have an opinion on whether the media has been bias here or not.
09-15-2014 , 06:18 PM
Salmond is constantly on TV spewing lies and not being confronted aggressively with the truth. Clear bias.
09-15-2014 , 06:34 PM
I know close to nothing about this, I just have one question.

Who can vote? Like, if both of your parents were born in Scotland and you were born and raised in England...? Also, let's say 'yes' wins. Is this person, what? Pick one? Both?
09-15-2014 , 06:35 PM
Pretty sure nobody really cares about Scotland. At all.

Thanks for your time.
09-15-2014 , 06:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vixticator
I know close to nothing about this, I just have one question.

Who can vote? Like, if both of your parents were born in Scotland and you were born and raised in England...? Also, let's say 'yes' wins. Is this person, what? Pick one? Both?
Anyone living in Scotland can vote. Anyone not living in Scotland cant vote.

No one knows exactly how citizenship and right to stay/return will work. This hasnt been worked out yet, like every other important detail it will be worked out later, but it is one of the easiest things they will end up negotiating.
09-15-2014 , 06:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WM2
2) "If we were not a fraction richer but a great deal fairer, that would be tremendously to the benefit of the vast majority of ordinary people."
You're not pale enough already?
09-15-2014 , 07:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by [Phill]
Anyone living in Scotland can vote. Anyone not living in Scotland cant vote.

No one knows exactly how citizenship and right to stay/return will work. This hasnt been worked out yet, like every other important detail it will be worked out later, but it is one of the easiest things they will end up negotiating.
Why would they keep the Queen as their Head of State? That's what I read anyhow. Doesn't seem to make much sense to me.
09-15-2014 , 08:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by [Phill]
Anyone living in Scotland can vote. Anyone not living in Scotland cant vote.

No one knows exactly how citizenship and right to stay/return will work. This hasnt been worked out yet, like every other important detail it will be worked out later, but it is one of the easiest things they will end up negotiating.
Not just anyone living in Scotland can vote. Brittish passport + living in Scotland + on the electoral roll = can vote.

Hardly like it has to be worked out right now. Scotland wont become an independent country in the event of a yes vote for at the very least 18 months.

Ruth Davidson was debating last night that Salmond having chosen his negotiating team for Friday was like 'celebrating winning the cup when you've still to play the semi-final, and we all know how that ends' apparently it was irresponsible and complacent of him to be ready for negotiations.
09-15-2014 , 08:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhyDid I doThat :|
Not just anyone living in Scotland can vote. Brittish passport + living in Scotland + on the electoral roll = can vote.

Hardly like it has to be worked out right now. Scotland wont become an independent country in the event of a yes vote for at the very least 18 months.

Ruth Davidson was debating last night that Salmond having chosen his negotiating team for Friday was like 'celebrating winning the cup when you've still to play the semi-final, and we all know how that ends' apparently it was irresponsible and complacent of him to be ready for negotiations.
You don't need a British passport.

Citizenship will be simple, you can be both. Just like in N.I. Right to return work etc will also be simple, everything will work just as it does now.

As for keeping the Queen, well the monarchy should obviously not exist but given it does why not? Why does Australia do the same? Pretty meaningless figurehead.
09-15-2014 , 09:01 PM
as a political junkie, in a swing state full of ads by outside interests spewing unforetold amounts of ignorance, in a race closely watched by both parties as a potential game changer

I have to admit I find it all boring as hell compared to what's going to be going down in Scotland in 7 days - I wish the best for that country no matter which way it goes -

RB
09-15-2014 , 10:08 PM
09-16-2014 , 12:49 AM
Without having watched a single minute of british TV Im preety sure that the media is biased as **** towards no and no supporters for some reason deny it instead of accepting it and pointing out that in no way that harms their viewpoint.
09-16-2014 , 03:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Husker
Ah, so the NUJ are in on the big conspiracy as well now?
Its so funny how mindless ideologues fail to see media bias when the bias is confirming their own biases.

Rupert Murdoch made billions by being the first well-heeled media magnate to comprehend that the US media was grotesquely slanted to the left while the population was split 50/50 and there was a lucrative market in providing right wing slanted news... So he did, and completely won.

Ask any right wing ideologue, Fox News is completely unbiased. They just report the truth. Any mention from the left about bias is just absurd paranoia.

Ask any left wing ideologue, MSNBC is completely unbiased. They just report the truth. Any mention from the right about bias is just absurd paranoia.

As life progresses, the more and more I can't help believe that a man with an IQ of 100 but possessing ruthless objectivity has a much greater chance of success in this life than someone with an IQ of 120 or 130 but emotionally biased in everything they see and do, facts first reconciled against their ideals and then contorted to fit. Their potential is squandered on the creation of elaborate delusions.

There has been an objective bias in the 'large UK media outlet' sources for No. This isn't even a matter of opinion.
09-16-2014 , 03:15 AM
Lol at Yes voters lining to just nakedly assert the bias and even try to claim the rational high ground by doing so.

Its biased coz I say it is, not opinion though.

GTFO.
09-16-2014 , 03:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by O.A.F.K.1.1
Lol at Yes voters lining to just nakedly assert the bias and even try to claim the rational high ground by doing so.

Its biased coz I say it is, not opinion though.

GTFO.
Did you ignore this post?
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=1488

The most LOL thing is that you think this is a matter of opinion, as if we weren't living in the age of media permanence where this sort of thing can be reexamined and quantified.

One of the best indicators of media bias is when a group of ideologues claim itis totally unbiased. The fact that we see "No" rising to breathlessly assert non-bias is a huge indicator of the No bias.

If there had been a Yes bias, we'd see the same thing from Yes. Entities that do have a Yes bias are considered by a lot of people in 'Yes' to be otherwise unbiased.

You must be young, or just not very observant about how the world works.
09-16-2014 , 03:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WM2
One of the best indicators of media bias is when a group of ideologues claim itis totally unbiased. The fact that we see "No" rising to breathlessly assert non-bias is a huge indicator of the No bias.

If there had been a Yes bias, we'd see the same thing from Yes. Entities that do have a Yes bias are considered by a lot of people in 'Yes' to be otherwise unbiased.

You must be young, or just not very observant about how the world works.
so if one side claims there's a media bias against them, and the other side disagrees, then this is IN AND OF ITSELF proof of bias?

You must be very old, or just not very observant about how the world works.
09-16-2014 , 03:45 AM
Quote:
The fact that we see "No" rising to breathlessly assert non-bias is a huge indicator of the No bias.
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOL, dumbest circular logic evar, this makes it impossible to claim its non biased.
09-16-2014 , 03:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WM2
Its so funny how mindless ideologues fail to see media bias when the bias is confirming their own biases.

Rupert Murdoch made billions by being the first well-heeled media magnate to comprehend that the US media was grotesquely slanted to the left while the population was split 50/50 and there was a lucrative market in providing right wing slanted news... So he did, and completely won.

Ask any right wing ideologue, Fox News is completely unbiased. They just report the truth. Any mention from the left about bias is just absurd paranoia.

Ask any left wing ideologue, MSNBC is completely unbiased. They just report the truth. Any mention from the right about bias is just absurd paranoia.

As life progresses, the more and more I can't help believe that a man with an IQ of 100 but possessing ruthless objectivity has a much greater chance of success in this life than someone with an IQ of 120 or 130 but emotionally biased in everything they see and do, facts first reconciled against their ideals and then contorted to fit. Their potential is squandered on the creation of elaborate delusions.

There has been an objective bias in the 'large UK media outlet' sources for No. This isn't even a matter of opinion.
Not sure why you quoted my post about the NUJ when you never actually addressed it in that rambling reply.
09-16-2014 , 04:10 AM
That the YES supporters can claim that the bias is FACT, NOT A DEBATE, NOT AN OPINION and then in the same breath accuse the No camp of being the inflexible ideologues shows you all you need to know about the Orwellian nature of the Yes campaign.
09-16-2014 , 04:15 AM
Good article by author Ewan Morrison on why he joined and subsequently left the yes campaign. He is spot on on the way things have been for the yes campaign. The lack of political debate, the bullying and intimidation (this always happens in nationalist movements in my opinion).....

http://wakeupscotland.wordpress.com/...changed-to-no/

From that article

Quote:
Four months ago I joined the Yes camp out of a desire to take part in the great debate that the Yes camp told me was taking place within their ranks. Being a doubter I thought maybe I’d failed to find this debate and that it was exclusive to the membership of the Yes camp, so I joined hoping I could locate it and take part. But even as I was accepted into the ranks – after my ‘Morrison votes Yes’ article in Bella Caledonia, I noted that 5 out of the meagre 20 comments I received berated me for either not having decided sooner or for having questioned Yes at all. Another said, and I paraphrase: ‘Well if he’s had to mull it over he could easily switch to the other side.’ That comment in Bella Caledonia worked away at me like a stone in my shoe. Beneath it, I realised, was a subconscious message: ‘Now that you’re in with us you have to toe the line – ask questions about Yes and you’re out.’
Quote:
It was within a public meeting that I realised there was no absolutely no debate within the Yes camp. Zero debate – the focus was instead on attacking the enemy and creating an impenetrable shell to protect the unquestionable entity. In its place was a kind of shopping list of desires that was being added to daily. So there was: Get rid of Trident, raise the minimum wage, lower corporation tax, promote gay and lesbian rights, create a world leading Green economy, exploit oil to the full and become a world leading petro-chemical economy, nationalise the banks, nationalise BP, be more attractive to foreign investment. The shopping list of ‘positive’ ideal goals could never tally up, the desires of the Yessers were incompatible and contradicted each other, but to raise this was seen as being ‘negative’. Every kind of Yes had to be included, and this meant there could be no debate. Instead there was a kind of self-censorship and conformism.
Quote:
I left the Yes camp and joined the No camp not because I like the UK or think the status quo works well as it is. No. I think things are as complicated and compromised as they always are and that we live in trying times. The Yes camp understand that and so have created an illusion of a free space in which everything you’ve ever wanted can come to pass – overnight. How can it? There are exactly the same political conflicts within the factions of Yes as there are within the UK. After a Yes vote the fight for control of Scotland will begin and that unity that seemed like a dream will be shattered into the different groups who agreed to silence themselves to achieve an illusion of an impossible unity – the kind of unity you find in faith, not in politics.

      
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