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Old 04-05-2016, 03:10 PM   #101
bobman0330
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Re: Who Will Be The 2016 Republican Nominee?

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I don't know what that means any more than saying people have a basic human right not to be subjected to hate speech.
Yes, it is a flaw of rights-based arguments that they cannot be grasped by the morally depraved. For them, we must fall back on the pragmatic arguments about how censorship is a dangerous concept, slippery slope, etc.
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Old 04-05-2016, 03:11 PM   #102
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Re: Who Will Be The 2016 Republican Nominee?

I'm satisfied with the line drawn by Brandenburg v Ohio.
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Old 04-05-2016, 03:12 PM   #103
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Re: Who Will Be The 2016 Republican Nominee?

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I'm arguing that we shouldn't restrict hate speech at all. Preach hate if you want (God Hates ****!, etc), but expect to be mocked for it mercilessly.
From a legal standpoint? Sure. But I can't like go and call my boss a gay abomination and expect not to get fired because of FREE SPEECH. By the same token it seems reasonable to have similar speech restrictions on a college campus as well.
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Old 04-05-2016, 03:20 PM   #104
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Re: Who Will Be The 2016 Republican Nominee?

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Yes, it is a flaw of rights-based arguments that they cannot be grasped by the morally depraved. For them, we must fall back on the pragmatic arguments about how censorship is a dangerous concept, slippery slope, etc.
Denying the priority of freedom of speech is not an indicator of moral depravity. There are also pragmatic arguments regarding limits to freedom of speech, these arguments often lead to widely agreed to restrictions on that right.

That said claims in support of free speech, whether rights based or pragmatic are normative claims and are subject to the morally depraved failing to grasp them.
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Old 04-05-2016, 03:25 PM   #105
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Re: Who Will Be The 2016 Republican Nominee?

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From a legal standpoint? Sure. But I can't like go and call my boss a gay abomination and expect not to get fired because of FREE SPEECH. By the same token it seems reasonable to have similar speech restrictions on a college campus as well.
True although the reason the students are rightly mocked is that no one is pelting them with hate speech. Like the professor who tried to tell students that they should talk to each other about Halloween costumes and why they find them offensive... she was hoping to open a dialogue about cultural appropriation and build some understanding. Her point was that not everything is best served by creating some new rule set down from the campus administration.

No one in their right mind would be calling for a professor's dismissal after that, sorry, that's not hate speech. It's just overly-sensitive young people who are not going to be prepared for the real world if that is how they approach things they disagree with. They deserved to be mocked and lol at people saying "hey those kids just wanted safe spaces, what's the big deal?"
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Old 04-05-2016, 03:27 PM   #106
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Re: Who Will Be The 2016 Republican Nominee?

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Yes, it is a flaw of rights-based arguments that they cannot be grasped by the morally depraved. For them, we must fall back on the pragmatic arguments about how censorship is a dangerous concept, slippery slope, etc.
I wouldn't call you morally depraved for not getting the argument about the right not to be subjected to hate speech.

Censorship is not a dangerous concept. Concepts are very rarely dangerous.
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Old 04-05-2016, 03:31 PM   #107
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Re: Who Will Be The 2016 Republican Nominee?

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True although the reason the students are rightly mocked is that no one is pelting them with hate speech. Like the professor who tried to tell students that they should talk to each other about Halloween costumes and why they find them offensive... she was hoping to open a dialogue about cultural appropriation and build some understanding. Her point was that not everything is best served by creating some new rule set down from the campus administration.

No one in their right mind would be calling for a professor's dismissal after that, sorry, that's not hate speech. It's just overly-sensitive young people who are not going to be prepared for the real world if that is how they approach things they disagree with. They deserved to be mocked and lol at people saying "hey those kids just wanted safe spaces, what's the big deal?"
The students that were dressing up like Syrian refugees for Halloween were calling for her dismissal iirc. Not the offended ones. I may be thinking of another case.

Edit: Never mind I was thinking of something else.

Last edited by ALLTheCookies; 04-05-2016 at 03:37 PM.
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Old 04-05-2016, 03:51 PM   #108
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Re: Who Will Be The 2016 Republican Nominee?

How does the thread feel about Germany's ban on Nazi sympathizing? I get why they did it, but I don't think it's something the US should implement. Are there people ITT who want legal restrictions on hate speech, beyond expulsion/firing? Fines, jail time?

The basic idea of a safe space is nothing new (clubs, support groups, counselors office), and taking issue with it would be idiotic. What right wingers lose their minds over is when students want their classes, or the whole campus, to be safe spaces free from not only hate speech, but much more benign offenses. No doubt they blow it way out of proportion, but there are definitely examples of students being sensitive beyond what could be considered reasonable.
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Old 04-05-2016, 04:08 PM   #109
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Re: Who Will Be The 2016 Republican Nominee?

The ban on Nazi symbology and rhetoric was an emergency response to an emergency situation:

"What do we do right after WWII with a country full of former Nazis that literally committed mass murder?"


It's the sort of one-off situation that should not be a precedent for our behavior in normal times, like Lincoln's suspension of habeus corpus in the middle of a Civil War.


It made perfect sense when it was instituted and helped do the job it was intended to do. That is not the same as saying we should ban Nazi symbology and rhetoric everywhere for all time, as odious as it is. Nor that we should ban other hate speech, as odious as it is.
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Old 04-05-2016, 04:09 PM   #110
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Re: Who Will Be The 2016 Republican Nominee?

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Shouldn't colleges, of all places, be bastions of free speech? Shouldn't they champion the "marketplace of ideas"? Let everyone talk, even the *******s.
Maybe, but what you're saying amounts to making colleges safe spaces where you are allowed to talk without facing the consequences like we have in the real world. Not sure we should baby college kids to that extent..... full professors maybe.
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Old 04-05-2016, 04:22 PM   #111
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Re: Who Will Be The 2016 Republican Nominee?

I think the Left in favor of speech codes has far more in common with the Religious Right than they'd like.


They have both moved from wanting to have the freedom to do things themselves to wanting the power to police what other people do or say. There is no right "not to be disagreed with" or "not to be criticized", just as there is no right to force other people to abide by your religion.


One of the opinions that kept Bork off the Supreme Court was his idiotic idea that simply knowing a behavior was taking place caused real harm to those people who considered it to be immoral. This would have given unlimited license to the govt to interfere in everyone's life forever.


I think it's equally idiotic to decide the govt should have the power to tell people what they're allowed to say (and that, essentially, is what laws like those in the UK assert the right to do).
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Old 04-05-2016, 04:24 PM   #112
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Re: Who Will Be The 2016 Republican Nominee?

Where does that leave extreme examples like inciting racial hatred?
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Old 04-05-2016, 04:27 PM   #113
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Re: Who Will Be The 2016 Republican Nominee?

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Fair enough. So are you agreeing with the idea of students being able to opt out of class assignments involving reading classic novels because it makes them uncomfortable?
Giving rape victims an option to not read books that depict rape and just read a different book sounds pretty civil for anyone with a conscience.

Like half the class isn't reading the book anyway, if one of the 15 kids who actually wanted to do the work wants to read something else you can work something out.
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Old 04-05-2016, 04:31 PM   #114
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Re: Who Will Be The 2016 Republican Nominee?

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Where does that leave extreme examples like inciting racial hatred?
Incitement to violence is a crime and should remain so.


Incitement to hatred should be roundly mocked but not illegal.
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Old 04-05-2016, 04:35 PM   #115
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Re: Who Will Be The 2016 Republican Nominee?

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Giving rape victims an option to not read books that depict rape and just read a different book sounds pretty civil for anyone with a conscience.
Everyone needs the option then. Victims shouldn't have to 'come out'.

and what about prohibitions on hateful rape related speech being aimed at them? Do they have to put up with that?
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Old 04-05-2016, 04:37 PM   #116
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Re: Who Will Be The 2016 Republican Nominee?

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Giving rape victims an option to not read books that depict rape and just read a different book sounds pretty civil for anyone with a conscience.

Like half the class isn't reading the book anyway, if one of the 15 kids who actually wanted to do the work wants to read something else you can work something out.
That example is a perfect one where common sense should hold sway we should make an accommodation.


But what of Things Fall Apart and The Great Gatsby? We live in a world with ethnic conflict that sometimes explodes into violence and with misogyny & racism. Should we ignore this?


Should we never teach books that make people uncomfortable?
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Old 04-05-2016, 04:45 PM   #117
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Re: Who Will Be The 2016 Republican Nominee?

Well let's be clear. Just because literally one moron at Rutgers proposed flagging Gatsby doesn't mean anything actually came out of it. The people who run colleges aren't morons.
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Old 04-05-2016, 04:46 PM   #118
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Re: Who Will Be The 2016 Republican Nominee?

Chez, that's the whole point. Everyone does have the option! But basically no one exercises it. It's a thing that happens maybe a handful of times a year when there are millions of cases. Yet, people like FoldnDark lose their collective **** about these 0.001% of people.

Ponied slightly by keed
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Old 04-05-2016, 04:51 PM   #119
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Re: Who Will Be The 2016 Republican Nominee?

They should be embarrassed to be teaching Gatsby at the college level, but leaving that aside, no one is actually stopping profs from assigning it. Some students complained about it and made ridiculous demands, and that should certainly be mocked, but at the end of the day, it was just a fringe SJW element that changed nothing.

Despite this, people are tossing around wild stories of banned books and students being silenced. It's hard to take any of this seriously when we're give no concrete examples of SJWs gone amock.
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Old 04-05-2016, 04:52 PM   #120
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Re: Who Will Be The 2016 Republican Nominee?

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Well let's be clear. Just because literally one moron at Rutgers proposed flagging Gatsby doesn't mean anything actually came out of it. The people who run colleges aren't morons.
Yeah, moron says something and is largely ignored. Seems like a fully functioning marketplace of ideas.
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Old 04-05-2016, 05:04 PM   #121
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Re: Who Will Be The 2016 Republican Nominee?

Uh oh, cheezelawg/FoldnRape tag teaming this thread against its will.

Someone needs to follow the breadcrumbs back to their smp safe space
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Old 04-05-2016, 05:04 PM   #122
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Re: Who Will Be The 2016 Republican Nominee?

Well it's good to see so many of you reject those "isolated" incidents. I guess it follows now you would agree that if those sorts of incidents we're becoming more regular, that could be an issue worth considering. Say, if you were to read one of the hundreds of articles by liberal and conservative columnists alike citing examples and concerns from professors, students, activists, comedians, presidents:

Quote:
Originally posted by Barack Obama
It’s not just sometimes folks who are mad that colleges are too liberal that have a problem. Sometimes there are folks on college campuses who are liberal, and maybe even agree with me on a bunch of issues, who sometimes aren’t listening to the other side, and that’s a problem too. I’ve heard some college campuses where they don’t want to have a guest speaker who is too conservative or they don’t want to read a book if it has language that is offensive to African-Americans or somehow sends a demeaning signal towards women. I gotta tell you, I don’t agree with that either. I don’t agree that you, when you become students at colleges, have to be coddled and protected from different points of view. I think you should be able to — anybody who comes to speak to you and you disagree with, you should have an argument with ‘em. But you shouldn’t silence them by saying, “You can’t come because I’m too sensitive to hear what you have to say.” That’s not the way we learn either.
http://righteousmind.com/obama-speak...ling-campuses/
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Old 04-05-2016, 05:06 PM   #123
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Re: Who Will Be The 2016 Republican Nominee?

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I don't necessarily agree with the whole trigger warning stuff. Like most people on the left, I think it's overkill and unhelpful.

That said, everytime I hear someone use it as a joke, I translate it to what they they really mean, and it becomes much less funny.

"Triggered? Lol! Hey guys. Remember those women that got raped or abused as children?

Remember? They complained that the fact that rape and forced kissing etc is everywhere in media caused them PTSD like symptoms where they were suddenly confronted with full recall of the attack?

I mean, I know right! How FUNNY is that? Triggered. Hahaha"
You are most definitely triggered right now.
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Old 04-05-2016, 05:09 PM   #124
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Re: Who Will Be The 2016 Republican Nominee?

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Originally Posted by FoldnDark View Post
Well it's good to see so many of you reject those "isolated" incidents. I guess it follows now you would agree that if those sorts of incidents we're becoming more regular, that could be an issue worth considering. Say, if you were to read one of the hundreds of articles by liberal and conservative columnists alike citing examples and concerns from professors, students, activists, comedians, presidents:


http://righteousmind.com/obama-speak...ling-campuses/

Bro no one is going to read hundreds of articles written by morons on a subject that is trivial. What are some of the bad things that you think have happened because of SAFE SPACES? Oh right nothing
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Old 04-05-2016, 05:11 PM   #125
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Re: Who Will Be The 2016 Republican Nominee?

How about you try just reading one?
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