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06-20-2016 , 06:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FoldnDark
From the start of the letter:



It is clear MLK is a very big fan of negotiation, and direct action is a great way to get attention and force people to confront issues. So that's great, do that, protest. I did that in Ferguson. Now what? Oh, yeah, negotiation involves productive discussions. Is this a place for those discussion, or is this forum still a part of that protest?
MLK is an advocate of understanding why people are racist or act in a racially divisive way, and he totally opposes hatred. As I pointed out before, much of his approach would not be welcome by many here and anyone espousing some of his views here would likely be called an apologist.

MLK understands that understanding and reconciliation doesn't conflict with anger or direct action. He was a great man.
06-20-2016 , 06:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWookie
Hahahahaha, vital AND counterproductive?
Sometimes vital to generate the debate and generally counterproductive while having it.

Yes, nothing funny about that.
06-20-2016 , 06:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chezlaw
MLK is an advocate of understanding why people are racist or act in a racially divisive way, and he totally opposes hatred. As I pointed out before, much of his approach would not be welcome by many here and anyone espousing some of his views here would likely be called an apologist.
Example please.
06-20-2016 , 06:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by well named
You saw the word negotiation and got too excited to read the rest of the paragraph.
Just take this discussion. Many people in here, you included, have made the point to insinuate or even outright called me a racist in this thread, with no explanation why. I can defend my statements, but what is there to discuss there? What productive has become of that? What have you achieved in the negotiation towards racial equality?

What if I started calling everyone in here dumbass I thought was a horrible self righteous ignoramus who can't think past level 2 and I could totally beat you in chess and backgammon? Wouldn't be productive. Nothing productive achieved in the negotiation toward racial equality.
06-20-2016 , 06:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FoldnDark
Just take this discussion. Many people in here, you included, have made the point to insinuate or even outright called me a racist in this thread, with no explanation why. I can defend my statements, but what is there to discuss there? What productive has become of that? What have you achieved in the negotiation towards racial equality? .
What are we supposed to achieve instead?

But here, I have another example for you. A bunch of people called a moderator of a certain forum racist, raising hell that he be removed as mod. He fights back hard, threatening to ban people. A certain forum admin doesn't want to do anything. But hoi polloi keep at it, antagonizing the mod and pointing out his continued unacceptable posting. Eventually, the admin agrees to negotiate and conceded the mod should be removed as a mod. All is well, and the hellraising was clearly productive.
06-20-2016 , 06:27 PM
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that."

-MLK
06-20-2016 , 06:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FoldnDark
... It is clear MLK is a very big fan of negotiation, and direct action is a great way to get attention and force people to confront issues. So that's great, do that, protest. I did that in Ferguson...
This is all wrong. Direct action is much deeper than protest. The Montgomery bus boycott wasn't an attempt to simply "foster a dialog", it was an attempt to bankrupt the flippin bus company. Which sends the message... if we can do it here, we can do it anywhere. The sit down strikes in Flint MI weren't an attempt to merely "foster a dialog". Ditto the Greensboro Lunch counter occupation. Yeah, it's an attempt to "foster a dialog" sure, a dialog of capitulation.

Quote:
... Is this a place for those discussion, or is this forum still a part of that protest?
ZOMG... you really are smoking the tweek again. Dude... you aren't the MLK of 2+2. LMFAO !!!1!
06-20-2016 , 06:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWookie
Example please.

Quote:
If we arrested every day, if we are exploited every day, if we are trampled over every day, don't ever let anyone pull you so low as to hate them. We must use the weapon of love. We must have the compassion and understanding for those who hate us. We must realize so many people are taught to hate us that they are not totally responsible for their hate. But we stand in life at midnight, we are always on the threshold of a new dawn.
Is he apologizing for racism? What's your view on his compassion and understanding?
06-20-2016 , 06:30 PM
https://www.goodreads.com/author/quo...uther_King_Jr_

"Now there is a final reason I think that Jesus says, "Love your enemies." It is this: that love has within it a redemptive power. And there is a power there that eventually transforms individuals. Just keep being friendly to that person. Just keep loving them, and they can’t stand it too long. Oh, they react in many ways in the beginning. They react with guilt feelings, and sometimes they’ll hate you a little more at that transition period, but just keep loving them. And by the power of your love they will break down under the load. That’s love, you see. It is redemptive, and this is why Jesus says love. There’s something about love that builds up and is creative. There is something about hate that tears down and is destructive. So love your enemies. (from "Loving Your Enemies")
"

MLK
06-20-2016 , 06:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chezlaw
Is he apologizing for racism? What's your view on his compassion and understanding?
No, it's not an apologetic, and it doesn't require never calling your enemies racist.
06-20-2016 , 06:35 PM
Speaking of loving your enemies, Gleen Greenwald on 'Defending my Enemy', is a good listen.
06-20-2016 , 06:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FoldnDark
Many people in here, you included, have made the point to insinuate or even outright called me a racist in this thread, with no explanation why.
I have not done this. To be clear, "racist" and "racism" have a lot of related meanings. I don't think you believe in the outright superiority of white people, or the inferiority of black people. I don't believe you have any particularly malicious feelings about different racial groups. I do believe based on some posts of yours from the Bruce era that you may suffer from a few prejudicial ideas, or at least did at the time. More importantly, I also believe that your attitudes about discussing race demonstrate a kind of racial bias that is important, on a social level, in the perpetuation of racial injustice. That's why I said they seemed like a perfect example of white fragility. King's complaints about "white moderates" apply to you very well, especially the bit about preferring "order" over "justice."

Beyond that, it's simply false to suggest that no one has told you why they think you are racist. You've been told repeatedly that the relative difference in your level of concern for the people who get called racists in comparison to your level of concern for the people who face racial injustice seems a bit racist. I would only say your posting is "racist" in the sense of perpetuating a racist status quo, even though that's not your intent.
06-20-2016 , 06:38 PM
Appealing to pretty generic MLK quotes about love in this context is a bad look. He also wrote:

Quote:
White Americans must recognize that justice for black people cannot be achieved without radical changes in the structure of our society. The comfortable, entrenched, the privileged cannot continue to tremble at the prospect of change of the status quo.
06-20-2016 , 06:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWookie
No, it's not an apologetic, and it doesn't require never calling your enemies racist.
Oh okay I'll take your word that it wouldn't count as apologetics if I said people weren't entirely responsible for their racism

Who said you should never call people racist?
06-20-2016 , 06:43 PM
And I would just have to say that is bs, WN. Using your perceived idea of my intentions as evidence of racism is pretty darn thin. It's pointless to argue that, there is no idea there to dispute. Pure emotional reasoning, and I would expect you to do better.

I'm not trembling at any prospect of status quo, hell I would support reparations because I've been convinced by reasonable arguments. But that doesn't mean any argument we disagree on makes me racist, **** (that was me insinuating you're an idiot).
06-20-2016 , 06:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chezlaw
Oh okay I'll take your word that it wouldn't count as apologetics if I said people weren't entirely responsible for their racism

Who said you should never call people racist?
Foldn.
06-20-2016 , 06:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWookie
Foldn.
I'm not sure he said that but I certainly haven't - you do at least get that don't you?
06-20-2016 , 06:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWookie
Foldn.
Allow me to correct you. Feel free to call anyone you want racist, anywhere, anytime. It's a very successful way to end a productive discussion, highly recommended by me if that is your intent. Don't pretend it's not a personal attack, that it fosters anything but an anti-intellectual discussion, or that you haven't built yourself a nice safe space here.
06-20-2016 , 06:50 PM
You do know the United States is a deeply, deeply racist country right?

I mean, you can argue that that statement "ends all productive discussion." But I would say a productive discussion can't even start without acknowledging that basic fact.
06-20-2016 , 06:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FoldnDark
Allow me to correct you. Feel free to call anyone you want racist, anywhere, anytime. It's a very successful way to end a productive discussion, highly recommended by me if that is your intent. Don't pretend it's not a personal attack, that it fosters anything but an anti-intellectual discussion, or that you haven't built yourself a nice safe space here.
Chez said "should," and your "correction" clarifies that you think one "should" indeed never call anyone racist.

I do find it hilarious that your new definition of a safe space is a place where racists can be called such, though.
06-20-2016 , 06:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FoldnDark
And I would just have to say that is bs, WN. Using your perceived idea of my intentions as evidence of racism is pretty darn thin. It's pointless to argue that, there is no idea there to dispute. Pure emotional reasoning, and I would expect you to do better.
I can't really make sense of this. I said that I don't believe you have any racist intentions. I did not interpret any perception of your intentions as evidence of racism. Rather the opposite. I clarified pretty specifically in what sense I find your attitudes to be "racist," which again is not a word I've used previously to describe you in this thread. Which part is "pure emotional reasoning?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by FoldnDark
I'm not trembling at any prospect of status quo
That quote wasn't addressed at you. It was addressed at the argument that MLK believed it was wrong to call out racism or to argue too stridently because he believed in love.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FoldnDark
hell I would support reparations because I've been convinced by reasonable arguments.



Quote:
Originally Posted by FoldnDark
But that doesn't mean any argument we disagree on makes me racist
I never suggested that disagreeing with me made you racist. In fact I never said you were a racist at all.

I feel like you're illustrating the point about white fragility again here. Previously the assertion was that much would be improved if we were just careful to call arguments racist instead of posters. I've done more than that. Not only did I carefully refer to specific statements you've made, but I was careful to qualify in what sense I felt they contributed to racial injustice. I did not call you a racist, and never have. I was careful to point out that I think you are well-intentioned.

Nevertheless, you are clearly incensed. You were upset by the idea that someone would even insinuate that you're racist. It's probably impossible to argue with someone that some of their ideas are racist without them feeling that it's being insinuated that they are racist. As a matter of fact, I have hewed pretty closely to your requests for an "intellectual" discussion of racism. It doesn't seem to have made it any more productive. You went off the rails several posts back and stopped responding to the actual arguments.
06-20-2016 , 06:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWookie
Chez said "should," and your "correction" clarifies that you think one "should" indeed never call anyone racist.

I do find it hilarious that your new definition of a safe space is a place where racists can be called such, though.

Lol, Trump is a racist!! I have no problem saying that. I said you should feel free to say it whenever you don't expect to have a productive discussion.
06-20-2016 , 06:59 PM
I swear in this country we are more afraid of being called a racist than being gunned down with an assault rifle. To be racist is human. To be self aware, that's a higher calling.
06-20-2016 , 06:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FoldnDark
Lol, Trump is a racist!! I have no problem saying that. I said you should feel free to say it whenever you don't expect to have a productive discussion.
This is objectively false, as I have said it when I have expected to have a productive discussion, and I have gotten exactly the production desired as a consequence.
06-20-2016 , 06:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FoldnDark
Allow me to correct you. Feel free to call anyone you want racist, anywhere, anytime. It's a very successful way to end a productive discussion, highly recommended by me if that is your intent. Don't pretend it's not a personal attack, that it fosters anything but an anti-intellectual discussion, or that you haven't built yourself a nice safe space here.
This exact post about the magic r word stifling discussion is made every time someone calls an idea racist instead of a person. So we can throw that objection out the window.

      
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