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Old 04-19-2011, 07:32 PM   #76
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Re: Ron Paul 2012 Containment Thread

Ron was on Hardball a minute ago, Chris Mathews gave him the 'non-birther' seal of approval. I felt his answer was a little too vague (though he clearly said he didn't think the birther thing was an issue), but it seemed like he didn't want to flat out deny it to avoid pissing off the 40% or whatever it is of the Republican party that are birthers.
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Old 04-19-2011, 08:18 PM   #77
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Re: Ron Paul 2012 Containment Thread

That's exactly what it is. Try calling his office and asking about it. If you're lucky his legislative director may personally cuss you out for being a moron.
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Old 04-19-2011, 08:25 PM   #78
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Re: Ron Paul 2012 Containment Thread

just ordered his new book...mainly curious about the section on evolution.
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Old 04-19-2011, 09:19 PM   #79
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Re: Ron Paul 2012 Containment Thread

Why is Paul trying to cater to the base though? His career has never been about winning, it's been about sticking to his principles and speaking the truth even when he knows its politically unpopular. I'm not really bothered by it, given that the birther phenomenon is such a colossal non-issue, but it seems like a pointless deviation from his consistency.
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Old 04-19-2011, 09:51 PM   #80
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Re: Ron Paul 2012 Containment Thread

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Originally Posted by General Tsao View Post
just ordered his new book...mainly curious about the section on evolution.
Evolution Versus Creation

No one person has perfect knowledge as to man's emergence on this earth. Yet almost everyone has a strong religious, scientific, or emotional opinion he or she considers gospel. The creationists frown on the evolutionists, and the evolutionists dismiss the creationists as kooky and unscientific. Lost in this struggle are those who look objectively at all the scientific evidence for evolution without feeling any need to reject the notion of an all-powerful, all-knowing Creator. My personal view is that recognizing the validity of an evolutionary process does not support atheism nor should it diminish one's view about God and the universe.

From my viewpoint, this is a debate about science and religion (and I wish it could be more civil!) and should not involve politicians at all. Why can't this remain an academic debate and not be made the political issue it has become?

The answer is simple. Both sides want to use the state to enforce their views on others. One side doesn't mind using force to expose others to prayer and professing their faith. The other side demands that they have the right never to be offended and demands prohibition of any public expression of faith.

Fortunately, in this country, there's no effort to establish any official state religion as has been done elsewhere. In many parts of the world today theocracies are still being imposed on many people. It is not a mystical threat, and I understand the impulse to resist. At the same time, the past hundred years have also seen secular dictatorships that banish religion in the name of shoring up allegiance to the state alone. I also understand the very real threat of that terrible reality.

The real problem comes when government gets involved in this issue, whether the goal is to push theocracy or merely prayer in a public place, or the opposite, to crush all traces of faith expression in public places.

One of the silliest questions posed to the Republican presidential candidates in 2008 dealt with evolution. Why should an individual running for the presidency in the United States be quizzed as to whether or not he or she believes in evolution? The question was designed in an attempt for the supporters of evolution to embarrass a candidate who supports creationism, or, if the candidate backs away, to drive a wedge between the candidate and the religious right.

The way the question was asked made it even sillier. It occurred May 3, 2007, in the first presidential debate in Simi Valley, California. The debate was moderated by Chris Matthews and John Harris. One of the moderators called for all the candidates who believed in evolution to raise their hands. At the time, my first impression was that this sounded like a third-grade class exercise. I interpreted raising one's hand as an all-or-nothing answer and as an insult and didn't bother to answer the question; nor was I called upon to discuss my views.

Most of the conflict between atheists and believers comes up because of public schools. This issue doesn't exist in private settings such as homes, homeschools, private schools, churches, and art studios, to name a few. In the private sector, every point of view can find a place and these ideas are not a threat to others. As Thomas Jefferson said: "It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." In a public school setting, however, it's a major hot-button issue because the school curriculum and all standards of behavior are dictated by the federal government, the Department of Education, and the federal courts.

Though the Constitution in no way prohibits religious expression in public places, the modern interpretation of the Constitution, pushed by the evangelical atheists, demands strict prohibition of public expressions of faith. Athletes can't even say a prayer before a sporting event according to court rulings. It's hard to understand the great danger in a voluntary prayer while it's considered no threat whatsoever for a minority to use government power to impose its views on others.

A broad-based tolerance in all directions would go a long way toward eliminating many of the problems, but public schools and public places will continue to exist. In a private setting, the "owners" set the rules and participants come with an understanding of the rules regarding prayer and religious expression and what one wants to hear about evolution.

This still leaves some problems with the possibility that local schools will overstep the bounds of etiquette or will use some textbooks considered to be offensive to one group or another. In this case, the closest one can come to having the "owner" decide would be for the local school board to make the decision and be subject to public challenge at the polls. The Supreme Court handing down edicts that apply to every single circumstance around the country is not a solution.

This will seem to be less than perfect. But it's a far better solution than having the Supreme Court or the Congress dictate proper decorum with regards to religious expression or picking the books our children will be using in the classroom. Universalization of educational standards and curriculum is exactly the goal of those who seek tyranny over liberty. And if they can use an issue such as prayer in the schools or teaching evolution, they'll not hesitate to do it.

There is one argument against evolution that deserves consideration. If man is evolving and progressing, why is man's involvement in mass killings of one another getting worse and the struggle for peace more difficult? Government wars and exterminations in the twentieth century reached 262 million people killed by their own governments and 44 million people killed in wars. I fear that doesn't say much for the evolutionary process.
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Old 04-19-2011, 09:55 PM   #81
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Re: Ron Paul 2012 Containment Thread

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Originally Posted by BornToPun View Post
Why is Paul trying to cater to the base though? His career has never been about winning, it's been about sticking to his principles and speaking the truth even when he knows its politically unpopular. I'm not really bothered by it, given that the birther phenomenon is such a colossal non-issue, but it seems like a pointless deviation from his consistency.
Not sure how you reached the conclusion that his career has never been about winning - he's been elected to Congress 11 times and worked hard to maintain solid support from his constituents during that period.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-ywngi3i-0
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Old 04-19-2011, 10:07 PM   #82
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Re: Ron Paul 2012 Containment Thread

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Congress can barely pass a budget as it is, does anyone really want a President who vetoes and tries to destroy EVERYTHING not specifically authorized by the Constitution?
Is this a trick question?

I would simply and emphatically answer... yes!

I guess I'd actually prefer a congress that only appropriated things specifically called for in the constitution, but failing that, break out the veto pen, plz.
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Old 04-19-2011, 10:09 PM   #83
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Re: Ron Paul 2012 Containment Thread

Ok I went too far- obv he wants to stay in office. But he says things everyday which are 10x more likely to piss people off (legalize drugs, end all wars, abolish income tax, etc.), it seems weird that BIRTHING is the one issue where he steps back and says "whoa whoa whoa, I don't want to step on any toes here!"

Like I said it's really a non-issue though.
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Old 04-19-2011, 10:40 PM   #84
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Re: Ron Paul 2012 Containment Thread

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I love Ron Paul, and hope his Presidential campaign gets the message of liberty out there, but other than ending all our retarded wars, he'd be a disaster of a President if he tried to stick strictly to his platform, and there's no reason to think he wouldn't. Congress can barely pass a budget as it is, does anyone really want a President who vetoes and tries to destroy EVERYTHING not specifically authorized by the Constitution?
It's not like this would stop things from getting passed. It would just force actual bipartisan support to override the veto. And everything that actually "needs" to get done has broad bipartisan support. It's the stuff that only some people want that gets fought about. Congress would recognize this and adjust. You would probably actually see the smallest partisan divide in decades as a result, as they'd all be forced to work together to pass laws.
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Old 04-19-2011, 10:43 PM   #85
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Re: Ron Paul 2012 Containment Thread

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Between the fact that he wants to go back to the gold standard (requires devaluing the **** out of the dollar unless we pull trillions of dollars worth of gold out of our asses)
How would it devalue the dollar at all? Just make the dollar equal to what gold trades for. 1/1000th of an ounce per dollar or whatever.

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cut the size of the military drastically (making unemployment even worse).
All the money would instead go to employment in the private sector.
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Old 04-19-2011, 10:57 PM   #86
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Re: Ron Paul 2012 Containment Thread

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How would it devalue the dollar at all? Just make the dollar equal to what gold trades for. 1/1000th of an ounce per dollar or whatever.
Going back to the gold standard would require that the Federal Reserve honor any and all requests to trade US dollars for gold at the price it was fixed to. There is no chance whatsoever that the Federal Reserve owns enough gold to pay for every dollar in circulation with gold at its present price. Thus, going back to the gold standard would in fact require a massive devaluation of the dollar relative to gold.
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Old 04-19-2011, 11:14 PM   #87
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Re: Ron Paul 2012 Containment Thread

Dollar has already been pretty devalued IYAM. And it's accelerating.
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Old 04-19-2011, 11:43 PM   #88
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Re: Ron Paul 2012 Containment Thread

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Dollar has already been pretty devalued IYAM. And it's accelerating.
That's missing the point. Yes, the price of gold has gone from $35/ounce to ~$1500/ounce, and this is (a product/indicative) of the dollar having been devalued, but the gold standard being implemented means that all dollars in circulation would need to be convertible to gold by the Federal Reserve. So the value of the dollar would instantly go to (dollars in circulation)/(ounces of gold owned by the Federal Reserve). Aside from being completely impractical, this would have catastrophic, destabilizing effects on the international economy.
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Old 04-20-2011, 12:01 AM   #89
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Re: Ron Paul 2012 Containment Thread

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Originally Posted by BornToPun View Post
Ok I went too far- obv he wants to stay in office. But he says things everyday which are 10x more likely to piss people off (legalize drugs, end all wars, abolish income tax, etc.), it seems weird that BIRTHING is the one issue where he steps back and says "whoa whoa whoa, I don't want to step on any toes here!"

Like I said it's really a non-issue though.
I think you've badly misrepresented his lack of desire to discuss the issue. He simply thinks it's beneath him to even address it. Did you not watch the interview you're citing?

Chris Matthews: Ron Paul, you're a very popular guy 'cause you're an honest guy. Is there anything to this birther thing? Give me an honest answer. Is it worth our time talking about it? The birther thing. Is it worth our time?

Ron Paul: I have no idea if there's anything to it. It doesn't interest me.

Chris Matthews: Is there something to it, based on what you've heard? Is there any question that our president is legitimate? Any question?

Ron Paul: From my viewpoint, obviously not, because I never bring it up. So I'm gonna leave it to talk show hosts and to Donald Trump, and let you guys argue it out.

Chris Matthews: NO, THIS IS A DODGE. Is there anything to it? Is there any doubt in your mind?

Ron Paul: Not that I know of. I don't...

Chris Matthews: Okay, thank you very much. You're not a birther, sir. Thank you. We're giving you the stamp of approval. YOU'RE NOT A BIRTHER. Thank you, Ron Paul.

Transparent and shameless attempt at trolling by CM in an effort to pick up a potentially embarrassing quote to discredit RP with the left or alienate him from the right. This is a favored tactic of his:

"One of the silliest questions posed to the Republican presidential candidates in 2008 dealt with evolution. Why should an individual running for the presidency in the United States be quizzed as to whether or not he or she believes in evolution? The question was designed in an attempt for the supporters of evolution to embarrass a candidate who supports creationism, or, if the candidate backs away, to drive a wedge between the candidate and the religious right.

The way the question was asked made it even sillier. It occurred May 3, 2007, in the first presidential debate in Simi Valley, California. The debate was moderated by Chris Matthews and John Harris. One of the moderators called for all the candidates who believed in evolution to raise their hands. At the time, my first impression was that this sounded like a third-grade class exercise. I interpreted raising one's hand as an all-or-nothing answer and as an insult and didn't bother to answer the question; nor was I called upon to discuss my views."

Ron Paul is America's last true statesman.

Shameless plug: For Liberty: How the Ron Paul Revolution Watered the Withered Tree of Liberty (password: 2012)

Last edited by Spladle; 04-20-2011 at 12:07 AM.
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Old 04-20-2011, 12:03 AM   #90
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Re: Ron Paul 2012 Containment Thread

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Going back to the gold standard would require that the Federal Reserve honor any and all requests to trade US dollars for gold at the price it was fixed to. There is no chance whatsoever that the Federal Reserve owns enough gold to pay for every dollar in circulation with gold at its present price. Thus, going back to the gold standard would in fact require a massive devaluation of the dollar relative to gold.
Why does the Fed have to own enough gold? That should only matter if you start inflating the dollar such that people feel the need to get rid of their money and get gold. Do you think that banks have all the money on hand that people have deposited with them all the time?
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