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Rick Perry Indicted on Abuse of Power, Coercion, and I Forget the 3rd Charge Rick Perry Indicted on Abuse of Power, Coercion, and I Forget the 3rd Charge

08-17-2014 , 02:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zikzak
You might want to think this through a little further. You're saying relatively low-level elected officials should be held to a higher standard than the people who write the actual laws because... they passed the bar? Prosecuting criminals is a heavier burden than enacting the very legislation that allows people to be prosecuted in the first place?

Our mayor and the entire city council may be corrupt as hell, but we insist that the dog catcher be the perfect embodiment of ethical purity!
Prosectors have a ton more power on a day to day basis over people's freedom then the legislators who write the laws, or the mayor, or the city council. They decide what to charge, what plea offers to make, who to prosecute and who not to prosecute. They are not the dog catcher. They are making decisions every day that effect a person's life. They must be held to the highest of moral standards. A person of questionable moral character in that position can do a ton of damage, because of how much discretion they have.
08-17-2014 , 02:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by [Phill]
and it was decided her minor crime didn't justify that..
As I have written several times, driving very drunk should be considered very close to the crime of hurting or killing someone while driving drunk. the latter crime should perhaps be punished less severely but the former should be punished more severely since the outcome of the crime is luck rather than intent.
08-17-2014 , 02:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Sklansky
As I have written several times, driving very drunk should be considered very close to the crime of hurting or killing someone while driving drunk. the latter crime should perhaps be punished less severely but the former should be punished more severely since the outcome of the crime is luck rather than intent.
I agree with this 100 percent. As it stands right now the only difference between the crime of Misdemeanor Driving While Intoxicated, which generally carries probation, and the crime of Vehicular Manslaughter, which generally carries substantial prison time, is dumb luck.
08-17-2014 , 02:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by [Phill]
I'm down with thinning the ranks of immoral lawyers. I'm not sure the place to start is with someone who went on trial, was convicted, served the sentence, got investigated to be disbarred or whatever and it was decided her minor crime didn't justify that.

Is anyone but Perry and his cronies calling for her to resign, such a co-worker? If not then it's clear it isn't necessary.
Also, she's the elected DA, she doesn't have co-workers, just employees. Nobody who works for her is going to publicly call on her to resign and expect to keep their job.
08-17-2014 , 02:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jman220
Prosectors have a ton more power on a day to day basis over people's freedom then the legislators who write the laws, or the mayor, or the city council. They decide what to charge, what plea offers to make, who to prosecute and who not to prosecute. They are not the dog catcher. They are making decisions every day that effect a person's life. They must be held to the highest of moral standards. A person of questionable moral character in that position can do a ton of damage, because of how much discretion they have.
And the Gestapo had a greater impact on day to day life in Germany than Hitler

/Godwin
08-17-2014 , 02:30 PM
In general it would seem to me that if you announce an action in advance which most people would reasonably believe is not illegal even if it technically is, and you are not advised by those who know otherwise of your illegality, you have a pretty good defense. They say that ignorance of the law is no excuse. But I think this doesn't apply to murky laws regarding non violent crimes.
08-17-2014 , 02:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zikzak
And the Gestapo had a greater impact on day to day life in Germany than Hitler

/Godwin
What in god's name is the point that you are trying to make?
08-17-2014 , 03:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jman220
I agree with this 100 percent. As it stands right now the only difference between the crime of Misdemeanor Driving While Intoxicated, which generally carries probation, and the crime of Vehicular Manslaughter, which generally carries substantial prison time, is dumb luck.
The law is the law. What the law should be is another discussion another day elsewhere.
08-17-2014 , 06:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jman220
It also doesn't change the fact that this indictment is lolbad stupid and a clear abuse of discretion.
1. I generally agree with you about the DA

2. When I first heard of this, I was astonished that there is a felony in Texas of "abuse of power".

3. All that being said, I have no idea how you can take the "wait and see, let the process play out" stance in the MB thread while simultaneously posting here that this indictment is "a clear abuse of discretion". Do you know all of the evidence against Perry? 'Cause I don't.
08-17-2014 , 06:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jman220
What in god's name is the point that you are trying to make?
It seemed like a perfectly clear lol Nazis analogy to me. But since you seem convinced that mid-level functionaries have more impact than top tier decision makers, I can see how it might have confused you.
08-17-2014 , 06:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zikzak
It seemed like a perfectly clear lol Nazis analogy to me. But since you seem convinced that mid-level functionaries have more impact than top tier decision makers, I can see how it might have confused you.
LOL playing the Nazi card on Perry. That is always a clear sign that they have lost the argument.
08-17-2014 , 06:42 PM
There's no real dispute in facts in the perry case. The prosecutor just absurdly overreached.
08-17-2014 , 06:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adios
LOL playing the Nazi card on Perry. That is always a clear sign that they have lost the argument.
Do you have any idea what's going on, adios?
08-17-2014 , 07:03 PM
This is not a Democratic witch hunt since the judge and special prosecutor are both Republicans.

http://www.texastribune.org/2014/08/...ry-indictment/
08-17-2014 , 08:30 PM
Zikzak do you realize the one congressman can't make any crazy laws without getting a majority of the other to pass a bill? A prosecutor has a lot of singular discretion, and this one seems to have even more with some control over the office of public integrity. Nothing compared to a legislative body as a whole but she definitely can affect individuals lives a lot more than a state senator or state representative.

I still don't know what to make of the nazi analogy. The only explanations I can make are that you must think Texas legistlators are somehow equal in their power structure to Hitler in the nazi government, or you're just really bad at making analogies but still like doubling down on them
08-17-2014 , 08:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockfsh
This is not a Democratic witch hunt since the judge and special prosecutor are both Republicans.

http://www.texastribune.org/2014/08/...ry-indictment/
Yeah, but, you know, Ikes is certain this is overreach!
08-17-2014 , 08:41 PM
Care to bet on a conviction phill? I get to choose your avatar for a month if there is no conviction or the charges are dropped or thrown out.
08-17-2014 , 08:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ikestoys
Care to bet on a conviction phill? I get to choose your avatar for a month if there is no conviction or the charges are dropped or thrown out.
Lol you.

Perry is a rich white corrupt and extremely connected guy in Texas.
08-17-2014 , 08:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zikzak
And there is no rule that says you get disbarred for having a DWI conviction. Any actions taken are up to the disciplinary commission of that state. She was also subject to a grand jury investigation, which decided that there weren't grounds to remove her from office.
Yeah obviously there shouldn't be a rule that any DUI gets you disbarred but this was not an run of the mill DUI. The type of DUI she had should at least lead to a lengthy suspension if not disbarring. The people on the disciplinary committee are probably her friends and as far as I can tell none of that is public so we don't know what happened other than she seems to have gotten nothing whatsoever from that
08-17-2014 , 08:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ikestoys
There's no real dispute in facts in the perry case. The prosecutor just absurdly overreached.
I think that's what is so interesting to me about this case. How often does a case go to trial where the plaintiff and defendant have the exact same story?
08-17-2014 , 08:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElliotR
1. I generally agree with you about the DA

2. When I first heard of this, I was astonished that there is a felony in Texas of "abuse of power".

3. All that being said, I have no idea how you can take the "wait and see, let the process play out" stance in the MB thread while simultaneously posting here that this indictment is "a clear abuse of discretion". Do you know all of the evidence against Perry? 'Cause I don't.

Because there are substantial and legitimate factual questions in the MB thread that need to be resolved. While I suppose it is possible there is something crazy going on here, I'm having a tough time even concieving of a factual scenario where criminal liability should ever be attached to a governor using his veto power.
08-17-2014 , 09:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zikzak
It seemed like a perfectly clear lol Nazis analogy to me. But since you seem convinced that mid-level functionaries have more impact than top tier decision makers, I can see how it might have confused you.
And you don't seem to understand that an elected DA isn't just some mid-level functionary. They can have a tremendous amount of power over person's day to life and liberty that upper level officials don't have, other than in a broad policy-sense kind of way. Your earlier analogy to the dog-catcher was also lolbad, and I still don't understand your nazi analogy, like at all.
08-17-2014 , 09:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockfsh
This is not a Democratic witch hunt since the judge and special prosecutor are both Republicans.

http://www.texastribune.org/2014/08/...ry-indictment/
I don't think it's a democratic witch-hunt, I think the special prosecutor is exercising really poor judgment.
08-17-2014 , 09:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GEAUX UL
I think that's what is so interesting to me about this case. How often does a case go to trial where the plaintiff and defendant have the exact same story?
It probably doesn't get to a jury. From all the legal analysis I've seen, it looks there are a few pure legal questions regarding whether what Perry did can constitute a violation of Texas law. Judge would decide those issues on a motion to dismiss. Basically Perry defense at this point is just saying I did it, but it can't be a crime. Thus, if he loses motion to dismiss, he would either have to come up with a new defense/story or hope that the jury just decides to disregard the law and not convict. Most likely though if he loses he would accept a plea.
08-17-2014 , 09:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadBoyBenny
Zikzak do you realize the one congressman can't make any crazy laws without getting a majority of the other to pass a bill? A prosecutor has a lot of singular discretion, and this one seems to have even more with some control over the office of public integrity. Nothing compared to a legislative body as a whole but she definitely can affect individuals lives a lot more than a state senator or state representative.

I still don't know what to make of the nazi analogy. The only explanations I can make are that you must think Texas legistlators are somehow equal in their power structure to Hitler in the nazi government, or you're just really bad at making analogies but still like doubling down on them
And, like jman, I'm going to have to assume the analogy confused you because you really do seem to think that that mid-level functionaries have more impact than top tier decision makers. I mean, if you guys are going to stick to your guns and insist that low level elected officials should be held to a stricter standard than high level elected officials then... **** idk. I guess we're at an impasse.

Are you aware that government is sort of, like, a hierarchy?

Also, at the risk of staying on topic, are you aware that the person who actually wielded unilateral veto power and defunded an entire agency was, you know, the highest ranking elected official in the state?

      
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