Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Politics political discourse

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-03-2017, 03:38 PM   #26
Noodle Wazlib
just about tolerable
 
Noodle Wazlib's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Drowning in robot chocolate
Posts: 9,724
Re: The Resistance: Actvism, protests and more!

Probably want to witness the last inauguration in the history of the country
Noodle Wazlib is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2017, 03:39 PM   #27
BroadwaySushy
old hand
 
BroadwaySushy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Waiting for the man
Posts: 1,944
Re: The Resistance: Actvism, protests and more!

No. They are just being gracious losers. An example a lot more people could follow.
BroadwaySushy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2017, 03:50 PM   #28
GBV
old hand
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,315
Re: The Resistance: Actvism, protests and more!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shame Trolly !!!1! View Post
Sure, the conservative business unions have become weak. But what else is there? There really is no hope, and I mean for the planet hosting human life, unless the power of rank-n-file workers remains disorganized and dormant. IMO one of the main reasons this weakness happened was allowing themselves to become almost appendages to the donkeys.

Automation is really a red-herring. It's certainly not the reason there are less factory jobs. Absentee owners don't personally operate robot lines, real working folk do. Who live in a community, the same community which enables the absentee owners with enforcement of their ownership "rights", infrastructure, raw materials, land, and the literal hours and days of peeps lives. All that cooperation can be withdrawn... not a wheel turns without our effort, all we gotta do is cross our arms and say "no". Trump "carving up" labor is basically a MSM lie.



Well, what you are talking about here is an animal of a different kind. Ferguson style riots aren't activism, and are a distinctly different kinda protest... an angry spontaneous protest that isn't organized or primarily composed of peeps who are otherwise activists. These types of riots/protests are also about the farthest thing you can get from being revolutionary or part of a 'civil war'.



Sure, and I'll give you one of my ideas: a team of digital artists create popular but copyrighted meme pix; another team of hactivists to propagate those memesin to be hosted or linked on the target's various websites; at the proper moment, all the linked pix could be flipped to some propaganda (like: XYZ corp kills babies !!!1!), then activist lawyers could swap the target with perhaps 1000s of individual take-down notices.

If you wanna get more hands on, most POS systems, easily accessible internal in store networks, company wi-fi, all that inventory shiz happening out on the loading dock, etc, etc is usually almost wide open, and can be disrupted quite easily.

I'd also like to point out that (a) don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good, and (b) IRL protests and actions build community in ways that virtual hactivism never could. Building community is job#1. It is always more important than the immediate issue being contested. And I could add (c)... there's a joy in IRL actions, it's worth doing for it's own sake. My advice is everyone able and privileged enough should be involved in some IRL activism, even those who primarily focus on the interwebs.

My point remains however, that disrupting communications in and of itself will never be enough... at some point the movement of people and things will also need to be disrupted.





This is what needs to be done. Over and over again. Practised until we got it right. Not a wheel turns without our labor.
Very interesting thanks.

With regard to automation: I see your point but I did notice all the bank cashiers and checkout girls (and a few guys) being replaced with machines. That's a lot of people. It is a serious social change. Maybe you think those people couldn't be unionized anyway?

I don't know as much about the potential of industrial labour because the UK doesn't have any to speak so I'll defer to your judgement.

About the Ferguson riots: it seems to me that there is a bit of myth that revolutionaries are charming, well educated ideallistic types like the chorus line of les miserable. From what i recall of my studies of the French and Russian revolutions they were mostly actually an angry mob of people who just couldn't take their **** lives any more. By comparison the Ferguson rioters et al looked pretty sharp.
Individual acts of millitancy may not have much impact: but this type of asymmetric warfare is probably the only effective way to resist the ienhanced power of the state with violence.

I love your creative digital insugency ideas. I think they have a lot of potential.
You are right that in isolation it can't be successful: but RL activism does come out of hacktivism to some extent. The million mask marches are indicative of that: of limited effectiveness they may be but they do hint at broader possibilities.

A salient point here: do you know the name of the man who cost the banking sector more money than any one else alive? He's a man called Martin Lewis who popularized PPI claims against UK banks. He cost them billions. He's not a socialist or an activist, probably not even a left-winger. He just led a consumer rights campaign. I think we can learn a lot from people like him.
GBV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2017, 05:39 PM   #29
Shame Trolly !!!1!
Neo-Gorean
 
Shame Trolly !!!1!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Dhimmi EcoWarrior for ISIS
Posts: 3,982
Re: The Resistance: Actvism, protests and more!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GBV View Post
... With regard to automation... Maybe you think those people couldn't be unionized anyway?...
Absolutely not. All working folk, regardless of what they do, and without exception, have, can and should organize.

Quote:
... About the Ferguson riots: it seems to me that there is a bit of myth that revolutionaries are charming, well educated ideallistic types...
Sure. My point is the folks rioting in Ferguson weren't revolutionaries. If the cops would have abandoned the city, there still wouldn't have been any revolution there. BTW: that's pretty much how the LAPD handled the 1992 riots, and we know those didn't lead to anything.

Quote:
... Individual acts of millitancy may not have much impact: but this type of asymmetric warfare is probably the only effective way to resist the enhanced power of the state with violence...
Again, although it's not what I do, I can't argue against the efficacy of individualized violent militancy, or Diversity of Tactics, in certain situations. Back in the campaign to integrate US lunch counters, in Jacksonville, where there was a riot known as "Axe-handle Saturday". The lunch counters there were snap-desegregated in days... where in other cities that didn't suffer violence, the same task took several years.

However, and again, disorganized rioters aren't waging warfare on the powers-to-be, asymmetric or otherwise.

Quote:
... Martin Lewis who popularized PPI claims against UK banks. He cost them billions... I think we can learn a lot from people like him.
BP shareholders also took a serious beating after the gulf drilling platform disaster. There are other mega $$$$ examples too. However, regardless of the $$$$, one thing guaranteed is that the sanctions imposed by the owning class upon the owning class will never be large enough to destabilize the hegemony of the owning class.
Shame Trolly !!!1! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2017, 07:46 PM   #30
zikzak
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
zikzak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 18,290
Re: The Resistance: Actvism, protests and more!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oroku$aki View Post
Also, can someone correct the spelling in the title.
I didn't even notice. Now I feel bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrModern View Post
I had someone throw glass at me in Paris in '06, so I'm on the #activist plan. I'll gladly do nothing all day to top it off.
I'm really hoping the general strike idea takes off. That's something my mom can do, and will if it looks like a thing other people are doing too. A measurable one day drop in productivity and commerce would be a powerful statement.
zikzak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2017, 12:22 AM   #31
Shame Trolly !!!1!
Neo-Gorean
 
Shame Trolly !!!1!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Dhimmi EcoWarrior for ISIS
Posts: 3,982
Re: The Resistance: Actvism, protests and more!

Quote:
Originally Posted by zikzak View Post
... I'm really hoping the general strike idea takes off. That's something my mom can do, and will if it looks like a thing other people are doing too. A measurable one day drop in productivity and commerce would be a powerful statement.






So, if nobody is working, going to school, or shopping, it's like a holiday, right? But it's way better than any old holiday, because we called it ourselves, and willed in into existence by our very actions. And nobody needs to be using those streets, as they shouldn't be going to work, school, or the stores. There really isn't a better time to exercise our rights to assemble on those streets and... party like we own them !!!1!
Shame Trolly !!!1! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2017, 12:25 AM   #32
SuperUberBob
Not interesting enough
 
SuperUberBob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Home, wherever that is
Posts: 39,334
Re: The Resistance: Actvism, protests and more!

Can you imagine if the entire country just outright did that?

It would be both awesome and horrifying at the same time.
SuperUberBob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2017, 12:28 AM   #33
campfirewest
Pooh-Bah
 
campfirewest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,369
Re: The Resistance: Actvism, protests and more!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shame Trolly !!!1! View Post






So, if nobody is working, going to school, or shopping, it's like a holiday, right? But it's way better than any old holiday, because we called it ourselves, and willed in into existence by our very actions. And nobody needs to be using those streets, as they shouldn't be going to work, school, or the stores. There really isn't a better time to exercise our rights to assemble on those streets and... party like we own them !!!1!
That would basically be like Thanksgiving before a ton of people decided it should be a day for shopping.
campfirewest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2017, 01:18 AM   #34
Shame Trolly !!!1!
Neo-Gorean
 
Shame Trolly !!!1!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Dhimmi EcoWarrior for ISIS
Posts: 3,982
Re: The Resistance: Actvism, protests and more!

Quote:
Originally Posted by campfirewest View Post
That would basically be like Thanksgiving before a ton of people decided it should be a day for shopping.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperUberBob View Post
Can you imagine if the entire country just outright did that?...
We don't have to imagine. It's been done. This works. I hope to see it work in person.

Quote:
...It would be both awesome and horrifying at the same time.
From the Wikipedia article on the 1919 Seattle General Strike...

Quote:
...Life during the strike

A cooperative body made up of rank and file workers... acted as a "virtual counter-government for the city."... to provide essential services for the people of Seattle during the work stoppage. For instance, garbage that would create a health hazard was collected, laundry workers continued to handle hospital laundry, and firemen remained on duty... In general, work was not halted if doing so would endanger lives.

In other cases, workers acted on their own initiative to create new institutions. Milk wagon drivers, after being denied the right by their employers to keep certain dairies open, established a distribution system of 35 neighborhood milk stations. A system of food distribution was also established, which throughout the strike committee distributed as many as 30,000 meals each day...

Army veterans created an alternative to the police in order to maintain order... forbade the use of force and did not carry weapons, and used "persuasion only.". Peacekeeping proved unnecessary. The regular police forces made no arrests in actions related to the strike, and general arrests dropped to less than half their normal number. Major General John F. Morrison, stationed in Seattle, claimed that he had never seen "a city so quiet and orderly."...

The methods of organization adopted by the striking workers bore resemblance to anarcho-syndicalism, perhaps reflecting the influence of the Industrial Workers of the World... though only a few striking locals were officially affiliated with the IWW...
Shame Trolly !!!1! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2017, 02:54 AM   #35
leavesofliberty
Pooh-Bah
 
leavesofliberty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Without the powers of Deep Blue
Posts: 5,035
Re: The Resistance: Actvism, protests and more!

Quote:
Originally Posted by zikzak View Post
Where do you propose we go?
South America, unless you want to be 100% free as a nomad, then Antarctica.
leavesofliberty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2017, 02:55 AM   #36
leavesofliberty
Pooh-Bah
 
leavesofliberty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Without the powers of Deep Blue
Posts: 5,035
Re: The Resistance: Actvism, protests and more!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GBV View Post
The problem with organized protest is that its only real value is in indicating the potential of violence directed at those in power. Other than that the purpose of marching serves mainly to provide a community and organization for protesters.

There is the danger of reflexive marching. Mostly marches do not "raise awareness" or influence politicians. However in certain high-profile situations like inauguration they are severely embarassing to people in power. Trump, a petty thin-skinned man, clearly hates the protesters, which is a good reason to support them.

That said, protests confined to marching and street activism will not be successful by themselves ultimately.

What should genuinely worry those in power is the ability the general public have to damage corporate power and interests through the internet. If the protesters learn how much power they have there they can destroy Trump's economic interests and effectively control him and his allies.
Don't get too hung up on the problems. This is making the perfect the enemy of the good.
leavesofliberty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2017, 04:08 AM   #37
microbet
Solar Powered
 
microbet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: 69.20.56.132
Posts: 41,334
Re: The Resistance: Actvism, protests and more!

I'll strike on Jan. 20th and even take my kids (HS age) to a protest, but I'm not in this for the Neo-Goreanism.
microbet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2017, 05:07 AM   #38
GBV
old hand
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,315
Re: The Resistance: Actvism, protests and more!

Quote:
Originally Posted by leavesofliberty View Post
Don't get too hung up on the problems. This is making the perfect the enemy of the good.
I'm highlighting the dangers.

In the UK during the Iraq war we had the largest ever protest march (1 million people, 2% of the whole of the UK population). It led to nothing. Marching isn't enough by itself.

The Occupy movement similarly petered out with no tangible effects.

If marching becomes simply a pressure valve for discontent then it ultimately becomes part of the control mechanism.
GBV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2017, 05:57 AM   #39
2/325Falcon
Conehead
 
2/325Falcon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 21,046
Re: The Resistance: Actvism, protests and more!

I'm going to work.
2/325Falcon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2017, 07:44 AM   #40
hornbug
grinder
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 648
Re: The Resistance: Actvism, protests and more!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GBV View Post
I'm highlighting the dangers.

In the UK during the Iraq war we had the largest ever protest march (1 million people, 2% of the whole of the UK population). It led to nothing. Marching isn't enough by itself.

The Occupy movement similarly petered out with no tangible effects.

If marching becomes simply a pressure valve for discontent then it ultimately becomes part of the control mechanism.
March organizers and some attendees will earn some needed cash from George Soros, that's a financial plus for them, isn't that enough of a positive benefit?
hornbug is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2017, 08:36 AM   #41
zikzak
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
zikzak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 18,290
Re: The Resistance: Actvism, protests and more!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GBV View Post
The Occupy movement similarly petered out with no tangible effects.
The Occupy movement brought inequality to mainstream public attention and introduced an entire generation to organized protest. It built the foundation future actions will be based on. Many of the J20 people are experienced veterans from Occupy.
zikzak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2017, 09:16 AM   #42
DrModern
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
DrModern's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,344
Re: The Resistance: Actvism, protests and more!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2/325Falcon View Post
I'm going to work.
Right, like you have a job... hippie.
DrModern is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2017, 01:19 PM   #43
Shame Trolly !!!1!
Neo-Gorean
 
Shame Trolly !!!1!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Dhimmi EcoWarrior for ISIS
Posts: 3,982
Re: The Resistance: Actvism, protests and more!

Quote:
Originally Posted by zikzak View Post
The Occupy movement... introduced an entire generation to organized protest. It built the foundation future actions will be based on. Many of the J20 people are experienced veterans from Occupy.
This. In turn many of the Occupy peeps like myself were experienced veterans of the WTO era. In turn, several of the Seattle peeps back then organized with folks who organized with veterans of the 1919 General Strike.

ETA: I'd also like to point out that there were indeed tangible and direct gains. Here in San Diego we doubled the amount of shelter space for the homeless. In general, all around the country, the foot of the policeman was loosened a bit off the neck of the homeless. Oh yeh, what else... the attempt to union bust the ILWU was defeated. That's really big... it's hard to explain just how big that was. There are tons more of examples.

Last edited by Shame Trolly !!!1!; 01-04-2017 at 01:26 PM.
Shame Trolly !!!1! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2017, 02:18 PM   #44
microbet
Solar Powered
 
microbet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: 69.20.56.132
Posts: 41,334
Re: The Resistance: Actvism, protests and more!

The protest movement I was most involved in was anti-apartheid/divestment in 1985-6. It led the University of California divesting and a few years later Nelson Mandela came by to say it made a difference.
microbet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2017, 06:39 PM   #45
SuperUberBob
Not interesting enough
 
SuperUberBob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Home, wherever that is
Posts: 39,334
Re: The Resistance: Actvism, protests and more!

Quote:
Originally Posted by leavesofliberty View Post
South America, unless you want to be 100% free as a nomad, then Antarctica.
You think America's democracy is in disrepair? Check out what Brazil is going through now.

If you really want to be away from people, Mongolia has the lowest population density in the world (5 people per 1 mile squared). It also has a traditional nomadic lifestyle if you dig that.

By comparison, New Hampshire has 147 people per mile squared
SuperUberBob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2017, 06:59 PM   #46
Trolly McTrollson
Under your bridges
 
Trolly McTrollson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Winesburg, Ohio
Posts: 19,299
Re: The Resistance: Actvism, protests and more!

I've never really been involved directly in politics, but that's definitely going to change. I'm going to write to every congresscritter who represents me and look into volunteering. I'm not gonna tell future generations that I just sat on my hands and let these imbeciles destroy my country.
Trolly McTrollson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2017, 07:19 PM   #47
leavesofliberty
Pooh-Bah
 
leavesofliberty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Without the powers of Deep Blue
Posts: 5,035
Re: The Resistance: Actvism, protests and more!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperUberBob View Post
You think America's democracy is in disrepair? Check out what Brazil is going through now.

If you really want to be away from people, Mongolia has the lowest population density in the world (5 people per 1 mile squared). It also has a traditional nomadic lifestyle if you dig that.

By comparison, New Hampshire has 147 people per mile squared
I wasn't talking about despair. I was talking about evading the gov't. Chile, Nicaragua, India, all good candidates.
leavesofliberty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2017, 07:24 PM   #48
leavesofliberty
Pooh-Bah
 
leavesofliberty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Without the powers of Deep Blue
Posts: 5,035
Re: The Resistance: Actvism, protests and more!

Beyond protesting, and moving away, you can set-up one of these,



And start to produce the various merchandise required in a counter-economy.
leavesofliberty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2017, 08:49 PM   #49
zikzak
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
zikzak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 18,290
Re: The Resistance: Actvism, protests and more!

Quote:
Originally Posted by leavesofliberty View Post
I wasn't talking about despair. I was talking about evading the gov't. Chile, Nicaragua, India, all good candidates.
It's hard to tell when you're joking sometimes.











That was a joke, right?
zikzak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2017, 09:07 PM   #50
problemeliminator
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
problemeliminator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: blogging about China
Posts: 9,158
Re: The Resistance: Actvism, protests and more!

He's a troll who wants liberals to leave the country.
problemeliminator is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:39 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v2.0.33 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ę 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online