roflmao

Lol

Yes. A lot of things are against the law. If circumcision were to be outlawed then you could not get it done in a hospital. You'd have to mutilate your child's penis by someone who is willing to risk jail time. Far more risky than it is nice.

This is nothing like abortion imo. Not getting the circumcision is no different than not getting one. I don't get the obsession with marking kids without their consent.

So this makes it okay to force cosmetic surgery on children to placate the collective ego? I don't get it. It was dumb then, it is dumb now. At least they had an excuse back then, that kind of ignorance is not an excuse any more.

Glad you came to that conclusion,i have no interest convincing you one way or the other.
What I'm saying that Jews, at least those who view themselves connected to the Jewish faith will continue to preform circumcision,regardless if that is illegal or not.

If you're interested in a hypothetical I am curious about your response. Let's say it becomes illegal in the states, parents go to childhood abuse and neglect court for their determinations and the circumcisor gets 2-4 years in prison. In this hypo there is still a black market to take kids to get circumcisions done. Would you be willing to risk getting this done knowing that is could bring DCFS investigations on yourself and likely get renewed investigations for additional children? Also would you risk getting this operation done by a person who is risking a multi-year prison sentence themselves?

And they deserve to be treated like criminals for doing that. If there was a religious group hellbent on raping babies, we shouldn't appease them.

While its absurd to suggest that such a law would be directly targetting Jews or Muslims (and almost assuredly would simply be a misguided attempt to impose pseudo-human rights values on the population), you'd see the same thing the Jews have gone through for dozens of times in their history:

For anyone whose Jewish national or religious identity is a sufficiently important part of who they are, they'll be forced to leave. Probably to Israel.

It's nothing new. In the middle ages, the dominant mental models were based on religion. And those who sought to homogenize thought would discriminate against Jews on the basis that they killed Christ.

In the 18th-19th century, idealized economic and social structure dominated mental models, and those who sought to homogenize thought would discriminate against Jews on the basis of their economic role (I.e. Protocols).

In the 20th century, science was the dominant mental model and those who sought to homogenize thought discriminated against Jewish genetics on the basis of racial inferiority.

Now, so-called "Human Rights" is the dominant mental model, and those who seek to homogenize thought discriminate against Jews (and Israel, obv) on the basis of manufactured "human rights" values.

So me? I understand it. Same old same old. Whether by design or by coincidence, the Jews always take the brunt of it. That's life as a minority - and why I'll never accept Israel giving up one iota of her Jewish mandate.

So, do what you will in America (I'm not even American), impose whatever you want. We'll whine and shout, but you'll do it anyway.

But we have Israel now. So at the end of the day, we're okay.

You're right, the law would be focused on the entire US population and not any specific religious class. People get circumcisions for non religious reasons as well. Although I think, in practice, the peer pressure circumcisors would be easy to stop. The muslims/jewish communities would be the ones who would actually keep trying to cut up children's penis'.

Well, if we did it in the states then the ~6.5 million jewish people would have a rough choice to make. Israel has ~7 million, so it would be hard for them to absorb a sizable percentage of the U.S. population. Even harder if other countries start to come around.

Personally, I could not care less what sun god or whatever you happen to follow tells you to cut up babies. It has nothing to do with discriminating against people of faith. It's about protecting children. People can cut up their own penis' as much as they would like when they can consent to it. Castrate yourself for all I care. But the person losing the penis should make the decision.

You're taking the brunt of anything. You'll still be jewish, your children will be jewish, american non circumcised children of jewish upbringing will still be jewish. So there really is no discrimination. Just an attempt to protect babies from mutilation.

Just to reiterate, this has nothing to do with your sun god or your other god or that prophet or the other random nomads who thought cutting up penis' was a good idea. It's about protecting babies from people who are stuck in a crazy mind frame.

But, just so we are clear, you would leave the country and go to Israel(or other middle east country that appreciates barbarism) instead of getting the operation in the black market?

Also, I am curious about this:

I don't know of Hadis has an answer, do you?

I'm personaly, is somethere close to aitishesm.
and i would probably still do it.
In order to understand you need to understand the Jewish faith which is build upon rituals.and the brit' is beginning of mizvot in Jewish life.
the philosophical approach of that to do then the laws of the state contribute the laws of religion is also deeply explored in Judaism.
and it is not an exaggeration but brit' is something that would be preformed even if the punishment is death.

Can't wait for AC to hit,when i can, comfortably eat 10 Ethiopian babies with out the fear of repercussion.

The answer obviously is no. People pick and choose which parts of their holy book to follow and which parts to ignore all the time. All we're saying is just ignore one more bit. No more massacres of unbelievers, no more slavery and no more penis chopping until you're 18 and can make a somewhat informed decision. We promise not to force feed you bacon or make you work on Saturdays just don't do things that harm others without their consent. The whole of Leviticus is basically out, why draw the line at the foreskin?

Force feed someone bacon? That's like getting raped by Kate Upton.

obv


most of the (sometimes not-so-) silent majority in israel is adamant that israel would be much stronger and healthier if jews would immigrate en masse. Most of the problems in Israel stem from the fear of going back to a minority (and judging by this conversation, those fears are reasonable) and the fact that 7 million people is way easier to intimidate and disrespect than 15 million.

i don't want to sit here and discuss the nit-picky details of it, but its at least fair to say that the psychological and physical harm done is mitigated, if not completely counteracted by the fact that being circumcized, as a jew, provides a sense of identity and belonging to a 5000 year old tradition, which, to my view, builds my identity much more than a little extra pleasure during sex or my strange, subconscious aversion to sweet wine.

I don't even care if god tells me to do it. Its a part of my people, and we're doing fine. If Americans insist that their babies be kept whole, then a lot of Jews will have to decide if their identity is more American or Jewish. Precisely the type of division and discrimination that rights activists claim to avoid at all costs. There's an obvious response to this that i'll address at the end...

of course. I'm not suggesting you hate Jews. And its entirely possible that some nomads noticed a bunch of infections before antibacterial soap was available in every CVS or Rexall and this was their response. It's a part of my identity, and it will be a part of my son's identity come hell or high water. But yes, we do take the brunt of it. For most Americans, its "no problem, no circumcision. I thought it would be healthier. Guess not. Oh well. Next issue"

For Jews, its fundamental.

It'll all be in Israel, but I probably would. I am a Jew. I love America and Americans, and my adopted homeland of Canada, for all the freedoms and opportunities they have provided and the values they hold. I pay taxes and work hard. I don't discriminate among my friends for religious, ethnic, or national reasons (or any other obv idiotic reason). But I am a Jew first and foremost, and if you believe circumcision ought to be banned, I will take that as a message that I (and my values) are not welcome here and I'll leave.

False dichotomy. I don't simply follow the Torah wholesale, nor do I live a completely secular lifestyle.

There are some conflicting areas, we make difficult decisions. I'm still of the opinion that any "damage" done by circumcision is negligible in comparison to the respect I have for my traditions.

I'm not some fundamentalist. We balance the tensions of living in modern society, respect for human rights and such, with the traditions of our people. We rationalize not following certain rules (i.e. animal sacrifice) because they are either impracticable or we have learned more about the world we live in/God created for us. No sane Jew believes the world was created in 7 days - we assume they were non-consecutive or a "day" has a different meaning than we thought.

...not that Im even particularly religious at all. I don't know if there's a god and frankly I don't care. But I do what my ancestors did because they turned out to be good people, they must have done lots right, and for the sense of belonging, community, comfort, and a thousand other reasons. and just as backup, in case there is a god who wants me to do it. what's the worst that could happen, really?

By the way, your obvious response to this:

is that "does making baby raping illegal discriminate and divide?"

to which I answer: of course it does - against baby rapists. but we accept that discrimination because we don't that ****. But what about cosmetic baby mutiliation? do you intend to make piercing a baby's ears illegal too? are we now discriminating against weirdo parents who are trying to make their baby girls look pretty? if not, then why do we need to discriminate against parents who are trying to build a sense of identity and tradition in their children?

we don't ignore; we rationalize and develop rules as to why we shouldnt follow them.

for example, the "stoning adulterers" imperative conflicts with the "thou shalt not kill" imperative and the rabbis decided the latter should prevail. the laws are categorized and in order to allow for adaptation to modern life and values.

if it was somehow shown that circumcision lead to a drastically higher death rate, they'd find a way to get rid of that too. but it doesn't

I'm gonna guess you could find a way to rationalize mutilating unwilling infants as well. Gotta be something in your outdated laws.

I don't know. I think the having nukes>>>>>>>>>population. Probably a conversation for the Israel thread.

You sounds like a frat guy bro.

Honestly, I don't think you'll make this decision. If both Canada and the US make this decision I feel like you and a lot of people are going to stay. There is no reason to do it, you're way too smart for the causation correlation argument about jewish people doing fine over the past 5k years. It's like Lisa's tiger repellent rock in the simpsons.

For Jewish men it is fundamental.

[quote]It'll all be in Israel, but I probably would. I am a Jew. I love America and Americans, and my adopted homeland of Canada, for all the freedoms and opportunities they have provided and the values they hold. I pay taxes and work hard. I don't discriminate among my friends for religious, ethnic, or national reasons (or any other obv idiotic reason). But I am a Jew first and foremost, and if you believe circumcision ought to be banned, I will take that as a message that I (and my values) are not welcome here and I'll leave.[quote]

If ritualistic genital mutilation is so primary a value of any group of people that they would leave comfort, freedom, and safety to continue ritualistic genital mutilation then yeah maybe you should go. You should be somewhere that can perform said rituals as humanely as possible I guess.

[quote]False dichotomy. I don't simply follow the Torah wholesale, nor do I live a completely secular lifestyle.

There are some conflicting areas, we make difficult decisions. I'm still of the opinion that any "damage" done by circumcision is negligible in comparison to the respect I have for my traditions.[quote]

Which won't functionally change at all if you take away circumcision and do it later. Which is a point you're missing. If your son gets it done when they are able to functionally agree to it, what is the problem?

I don't think you can pierce a baby's ears. It sounds like battery to me.

The cut penis is not the tradition. The people and the daily activities. A lot of people have cut their son's penis' over the years. You're not unique in that aspect at all.