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Old 03-20-2017, 11:29 PM   #19976
ChrisV
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

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Originally Posted by Namath12 View Post
How are liberals overplaying their hand here? they are in charge of zero investigations here
I think the Russia scandal is a real thing, but I also think there's a lot of confirmation bias going on and people are seizing on random stuff and thinking it's more evidence for the scandal when it's actually not relevant.

When I say liberals I mean the liberal Twittersphere and commentariat, not the Democratic Party.
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Old 03-20-2017, 11:38 PM   #19977
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

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I get it, but to be fair I don't need to be glued to David Corn's twitter or w/e all day to get the gist of these minor stories. I'm more of a big picture guy.
you're so smart and insightful

please keep boasting about things you know without knowing anything about them
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Old 03-20-2017, 11:42 PM   #19978
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

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I'm more of a big picture guy.
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Old 03-20-2017, 11:42 PM   #19979
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

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Old 03-20-2017, 11:48 PM   #19980
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

Trump thinks twitter is his cudgel to pummel the world so it's no surprise he has such dumb views on twitter things. (Let's be honest his views are dumb on most things)
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Old 03-20-2017, 11:54 PM   #19981
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

Sessions actually ended up hurting the whitehouse bigly in all this. His recusal and wussing out still pisses trump off but it also left an air gap at the DOJ which then allowed them to join the FBI in their positions today.
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Old 03-21-2017, 12:08 AM   #19982
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

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Old 03-21-2017, 12:15 AM   #19983
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

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Sessions actually ended up hurting the whitehouse bigly in all this. His recusal and wussing out still pisses trump off but it also left an air gap at the DOJ which then allowed them to join the FBI in their positions today.
What else could he do though?

He even said something to the effect of "These guys (the rest of the administration) don't know how this stuff works" when he recused himself, right?

As a sitting Senator prior to all this, I suspect he's certainly more connected than the rest of the lot, and he probably figures the rest of the Senate will go relatively easy on one of their own when there are plenty of other dudes who stepped in it on an even bigger scale.
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Old 03-21-2017, 01:00 AM   #19984
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

lol these roger stone quotes along with the fact that assange and wikileaks said they never communicated with him...

http://www.cnn.com/2017/03/20/politi...ileaks-claims/

good thing morons like stone and giuliani keep putting their foot in their mouths, if they were remotely competent and humble they wouldve gotten away with so much **** this year
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Old 03-21-2017, 01:27 AM   #19985
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

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Old 03-21-2017, 01:37 AM   #19986
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

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Ugh Kingston idiot on CNN insinuating that Russia was behind forcing Flynn out and that they were happy about it. Talk about conflation.


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Old 03-21-2017, 01:41 AM   #19987
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

45* is such a scumbag.

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Old 03-21-2017, 03:09 AM   #19988
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

An important data point that's getting lost in all the chaos of the last few days: when Napolitano repeated the false story about Obama wiretapping Trump tower, he was repeating it from RT--the story was Russian propaganda to begin with. So not only is Trump spreading lies about our former President, he's spreading the false propaganda of the Kremlin at the same time.

Report Confirms Fox News’ Napolitano Repeated Russian Media For His British Intelligence Conspiracy Theory
https://mediamatters.org/blog/2017/0...spiracy/215751
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The New York Times has confirmed that Fox News legal analyst Andrew Napolitano sourced his false allegation that former President Barack Obama asked British intelligence to spy on President Donald Trump to a discredited former CIA analyst. This analyst, Larry C. Johnson, floated the conspiracy theory on the Russian state-sponsored news network RT on March 6, the week after Trump’s original accusation that Obama was responsible for an illegal wiretap.
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Old 03-21-2017, 03:23 AM   #19989
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

Isn't Larry C. Johnson the dude that got the right frothing for months in 2008 about the mythical Michelle Obama Hate Whitey Speech?

The most astounding thing about these stories is the speed with which the Trump White House gets information from the right-wing fever swamp out into the world at large. I mean for generations now, the right-wing has had these cranks like Larry C. Johnson and Jerome Corsi churning out complete nonsense. It was not unprecedented for their work to become mainstream but the speed with which they get to the highest reaches of government is something.
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Old 03-21-2017, 03:30 AM   #19990
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

Yeah it looks like that would be the same Larry C. Johnson:
Man behind Michelle Obama and John Kerry hoaxes emerges at centre of GCHQ row
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7636996.html
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Old 03-21-2017, 03:38 AM   #19991
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

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From a more cynical political point of view, it has been repeatedly demonstrated by the GOP that truth is irrelevant and the American public can be convinced of something if you simply repeat it enough. So from a strategist point of view, overplaying your hand is just fighting fire with fire.
It's unclear how much political benefit if any the right was able to get from Benghazi though.

But, insofar as it at least worked to animate the base, it worked because it furthered a narrative and a rhetorical frame the right has pushed for years: Democrats are weak pussies, people die when they are in charge because they didn't use thermonuclear devices on Libya something something. Even the "what should they have done" was tenuous; all the right was doing was calling the Democrats pussies. Weak. Subservient to some unclear diplomatic protocols and not using OVERWHELMING FORCE to liquidate Muslims and save our boys or whatever. Obviously it's a whole lot of bull**** but they are, in the end, repeating the same conclusions. They just assemble the 'facts' and stories to fit the conclusion. Like all right-wing conspiracy theories, they start with the outcome and work backwards. We all can hate it but it's the sort of 'good politics' you're talking about because inevitably they repeating the thing people pay attention to: the conclusion. The point. The message.

Democrats are doing something entirely different. We've had this argument before. But it's a critical difference.

Democrats are taking a random assortment of facts that are yes, likely far more empirical and valid than anything that the right uses -- and building a half dozen potential, obscure conclusions. Donald Trump stole the election with Putin? Or he's grifting with him for personal enrichment? Setting up an ethnowhitenationalist global order? Enriching the global extraction industry elites at Exxon? Uh well, one of the above, or all. Donald Trump Bad Guy.

And I mean both elected Democrats and the commentariat/twittersphere.

Now I'm not so glib as to say this is a total miss. Let's admit probably IS working a little. Donald Trump's personal favorability, approval rating, etc. probably have some hard ceilings because we've driven the point home Donald Trump is a personally loathsome character. That's good, there's some value in that alone.

But it really doesn't get the left THAT much in the end. Not in the ways a lot of right-wing nonsense actually builds to meaningful, long-term hivemind behaviors. The best case scenario for the Democrats' strategy of destroying Trump personally will be to rid everyone of Trump but the GOP keeps right on truckin' unabated. There's some definite inherent value in limiting Trump's personal stores of political capital but enacting longterm change on anything doesn't end with simply destroying Trump.

Last edited by DVaut1; 03-21-2017 at 03:46 AM.
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Old 03-21-2017, 03:52 AM   #19992
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

Did you ever consider the possibility that some people actually do care about this as a national security issue? The fact that Russia interfered in our elections actually means something to a lot of us, more than just as a political football. You really seem to be catching the "everyone believes in nothing" virus that's going around.

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Old 03-21-2017, 03:57 AM   #19993
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

Like "the Democrats are just attacking Trump on this as a political weapon" is the kind of thing Russia would very, very much like people to be thinking right now. I'm just saying, be very careful what sources you're getting your information/opinions from. A lot of sources are tainted, it turns out.
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Old 03-21-2017, 04:01 AM   #19994
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

An investigation doesn't necessarily mean wrongdoing has occurred. You all need to step back, calm down and let it take it's course.

Anyone remember the investigation into HRC.
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Old 03-21-2017, 04:06 AM   #19995
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

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He said the same thing in regard to the Clinton investigation pre-election and we all know how that panned out.
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Alleged treasonous activities einbert.

He hasn't been convicted (or charged) with treason yet. You really need to control your tendency to grossly exaggerate unproven allegations as being factually undisputed criminal activities.
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An investigation doesn't necessarily mean wrongdoing has occurred. You all need to step back, calm down and let it take it's course.

Anyone remember the investigation into HRC.
lol comey has turned sushy into that which he most hated: einbert
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Old 03-21-2017, 04:20 AM   #19996
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

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lol comey has turned sushy into that which he most hated: einbert
Haha. Very good goofy. You have got a sense of humor after all.

I think I'm starting to like you.
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Old 03-21-2017, 04:31 AM   #19997
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

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Did you ever consider the possibility that some people actually do care about this as a national security issue? The fact that Russia interfered in our elections actually means something to a lot of us, more than just as a political football. You really seem to be catching the "everyone believes in nothing" virus that's going around.
There's a lot to unpack there. Rest assured I probably don't care that much about the answers since we've had this discussion before, so I wouldn't spend much time replying:

1. Russians have been engaged in low rent electioneering schemes and szalamitaktika politics since the Cold War. It's interesting and meaningful, sure, but hardly an existential crisis if that's what you're arguing. If you're acknowledging the point, namely that the Soviets have been rolling and trolling for a long time now, but arguing it's meaningfully different then explain why; because it's effective? Yet again we've had I dunno, more than 15 or so Presidential elections all with the Russians in the background trolling us for many of them and yet we only now, 16 years after the end of the Cold War, it's become a national security crisis?

Note too of course Americans engage in all the same subversions of democratic will in plenty of places so, yes, we may want to vet our genuine sincerity here. If you believe in something, your beliefs are best on display when applied normatively, not in an ad hoc manner.

Summary: Russians always troll elections, it's effects are not dispositive, the Trumpening of America is a problem of our own making, subverting democratic norms in other countries and vice versa (when it's done to us) has not seemed to cause a moral panic except for when we get an outcome we don't like, which suggests we're not dealing so much with a principle as an excuse.

2. Related, if this is a true 'national security' issue -- yet again remember that whole frame of pivoting immediately to behaving as if the banal geopolitical actions constitutes a threat to our security has historically been a glib right-wing frame to unnecessarily frighten morons -- we have to make an affirmative argument that Russian interference in our election literally threatens our security. Now I can predict we're going to get the "look at the unhinged maniac bozo now holding the nuclear codes" and fair enough, Trump is an unhinged maniac. And yet we're brought back to Point #1, that Russia has been trolling America since the 50s and it's not clear how much we can really attribute Trump to Russia. Bear in mind plenty on the left (and I suspect maybe 20k of my 25k posts on this forum are about precisely this) have been warning that America has become increasingly and reflexively racist, paranoid, angry and divorced from reality, that this a process long in gestation. That the middle class and up white guys (and some women) who fueled Trump have laid their cards bare for a generation about their revanchist, grievance fueled politics and that political forces like Trump were largely predictable. Maybe Putin was behind all of THAT, but I'm skeptical. I give my countrymen credit that their inchoate anger, rage, and paranoia at blacks, immigrants, ambitious women, gays, cosmopolitan social values, modernity, etc. is not foreign borne but inbred, so to speak.

In any event - is the argument here that we're going to be flying the Trikolor over the White House? That the Russians are planning to invade and Trump tells American armies to stand down? Probably not THAT sort of national security issue, right?

So we mean instead that like America's stated global interests are under threat? e.g., we're planning to look the other way as Russia gets aggressive in eastern Europe and central Asia?

Something else?

I get why election tampering is an issue that impacts how political power gets distributed and used, impacts diplomacy, effects economic power; all of that builds to how and why our military might get deployed (or not). If that's what you mean, I'm with you to the extent that election tampering is a national security issue but then we get into much squishier territory: now were saying well, Putin influences Trump to allow him to run rampant in the Ukraine, and jeopardizes our NATO allies, and central Asian oil markets, whatever. Fine. I appreciate the formal interpretation of what we mean here. But then yet again we're confronted with #3 below, which is the political wisdom of all of this. The right-wing historically pivots to blabbing about NATSEC INTERSTS because they know 'national security' is a way to dogwhistle to sharper, elite, wealthier interests that they want to protect access to things like cheap global oil and eastern European markets, but they want to do it in a way that doesn't sound overly-subserviant to esoteric global capital interests. So they turn everything into a NATSEC INTERST THREAD CODE ORANGE alarm because it frightens morons and confuse them into thinking they will be physically harmed if we don't act. Why is the LEFT embracing this? Maybe we've found it to be an effect political kludge but I'm not convinced. We've always stood opposed to that form of politicking and I think we're going to have a long way to go to catch up the right's ability to speak to it convincingly.

3. Lastly, and related to the last point in #2: this is all about the political wisdom of the time and attention spent by both the Democratic Party and Democratic ideologues who shape opinion on Russia. Here we are caught in trying to assess what matters to people, about how the things we're saying shapes and eventually results in acquiring power for ourselves so we can enact the things we want. I would argue that the politics of destroying Trump personally are frankly right out of the failed Clinton/NeverTrump strategy playbook which results in a weakened and feeble Trump, OK, but a powerful and largely unfazed Republican Party.

Toppling Trump and winning a consensus that he's a co-opted Russian agent still leaves huddled masses of angry suburban and exurban and rural whites yearning to breathe air free of the stench of recently arrived immigrants; still leaves the wretched refuse of our fly over country trying to zone blacks back into inner cities and rural poverty. Still leaves Rust Belt angry morons who think the Golden Door is the way white guys travel but no one else should pass. It leaves behind a Republican Party still slavish to corporate oligarchical interests, Paul Ryan still trying to dismantle what little income security the American middle class and working class have left, and 35 GOP governors eroding the dying embers of labor protection. The left will solve an urgent problem but one that ultimately gets them very little in the long run. It leaves behind everything that produced Trump.

It is, in many ways, the perfect strategy of the Clinton/NeverTrump brigades: an attempt to remove the ugliest of tumors but insists we don't want to use chemotherapy to harm the otherwise perfect body, because the prior status quo is exactly what they want to return to: a weak and feeble left that meekly begs for what are essentially corporation-driven, market welfare schemes like Obamacare and an angry, paranoid right that provides a bulwark against anything more radical than the health-care delivery systems the Heritage Foundation and Mitt Romney cooked up a decade ago.

Even forgetting the strategic interests, though, the tactical deployment is left wanting. Yet again I'll reiterate the story Democrats tell is one of an assembly of facts but no conclusion. Even your post gets to it! Today we're preening about national security and the great threats Trump and Putin pose to our physical bodies and national integrity; tomorrow it will all be a ruse to aid Kushner get no-bid Russian contracts. The day after that it's because Tillerson and Exxon are the secret buyers of a huge share of Rosneft. By the weekend we'll be back to Bannon's white nationalist dream of destroying the liberal order. Next week it will be Trump Grift.

I don't know where I rank on the 'interest in following the news' and 'predisposed to by an interpretation of events prediposed toward conclusions which embarrass Trump' but let's assume I'm in the top 25% of news consumption and I'm on the leftward 25% of America. And it still isn't at all clear to me what Trump's motivations are here and why anyone in this story is acting in the way they are. If this is ostensibly great politics, I should be frothing at the mouth mad and led there by left-wing thought leaders and politicians. So far the best I can muster is 'this is all kinda suspicious?' and maybe that's more on me than anyone on the left but I'm not so sure and I'm pretty confident the failing is that there is no actual, coherent story here with an assumption about why Trump and Russia are scheming together and what the relevant interests are of all of the parties. And yet again, broken record time, seems like a pretty drastic failure just on the tactics used (assembly of facts, no story) to achieve strategic goals (make Trump look bad).

Last edited by DVaut1; 03-21-2017 at 04:51 AM.
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Old 03-21-2017, 04:47 AM   #19998
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

If you're wondering why that word bomb is slightly longer than normal, it's because much of it was pasted into the comment box twice.

I would say a good long term reason to destroy Trump is to prevent a slide into autocracy so we have an opportunity to win future elections.
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Old 03-21-2017, 04:52 AM   #19999
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

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Like "the Democrats are just attacking Trump on this as a political weapon" is the kind of thing Russia would very, very much like people to be thinking right now. I'm just saying, be very careful what sources you're getting your information/opinions from. A lot of sources are tainted, it turns out.
How the Left Wins Friends and Influence People By Assuming Co-Option By Russia
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Old 03-21-2017, 04:53 AM   #20000
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

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Laugh but this idiot has over 200k followers somehow

wait
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