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Old 07-17-2017, 11:29 AM   #46001
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump



I'd never seen this before. deeply disturbing
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Old 07-17-2017, 11:48 AM   #46002
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

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Originally Posted by eyebooger View Post
If it's just standard politics, why was there so much lying about this meeting?
Lying is standard politics
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Old 07-17-2017, 12:09 PM   #46003
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

Without trying to speak for everybody else, I reply to poco and other potential Russians mostly for the lurkers who may be influenced by rational arguments.
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Old 07-17-2017, 12:19 PM   #46004
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

The point is that they're not here to be influenced, they're here to do the influencing, you're wasting column space on them
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Old 07-17-2017, 12:43 PM   #46005
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

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Going back to your first post then, I think when you said the left was short of "actual" ideas it sounded like you meant policy ideas. Because then you listed a bunch of policy ideas that you think are bad.

If you mean instead that the left is short of ideas on how to present good policy ideas in a compelling way, and that rather than finding a good way to present the wonkish, nuanced, and probably reasonable ideas they end up trying to sell the simple, easy to describe, and probably unreasonable ideas, well I think that's true enough. But it's a different problem.

It does seem like it's pretty difficult to sell complicated policy solutions to the American electorate, doesn't it?
Especially when McConnell and Ryan immediately brand any proposal that doesn't involve regressive tax cuts and corporate whoring as socialism.
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Old 07-17-2017, 12:58 PM   #46006
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

i'm still confused why mcconnell stripped tax cuts from healthcare bill....is the plan that it frees up deficiet space for a larger sounding victory when they do taxes vs getting half the victory snuck into a healthcare bill and getting no credit for it then?
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Old 07-17-2017, 01:13 PM   #46007
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

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i'm still confused why mcconnell stripped tax cuts from healthcare bill....is the plan that it frees up deficiet space for a larger sounding victory when they do taxes vs getting half the victory snuck into a healthcare bill and getting no credit for it then?
The Weeds kind of covered this but initially the bill looked like it was created by someone who just wanted tax cuts and less spending and now after the conservative policy wonks have had time to work on policy makers it's a mix of people who still want spending cuts with people who actually have a conservative vision for what healthcare should look like, but for that vision to happen it requires money. It's still a bit of a mix of both.
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Old 07-17-2017, 01:26 PM   #46008
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

eh, the US is a constant force undermining elections all over the world, removing democratically elected people we don't like, installing dictators, etc.

You have just been trained to believe that America = Good Guys
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Old 07-17-2017, 01:28 PM   #46009
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

Whatsyourpoint?
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Old 07-17-2017, 01:44 PM   #46010
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

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Originally Posted by OmgGlutten! View Post
eh, the US is a constant force undermining elections all over the world, removing democratically elected people we don't like, installing dictators, etc.

You have just been trained to believe that America = Good Guys
and that's wrong/bad.

is your argument that we should just be ok with another foreign power trying to do the same to us, since murica has done it in the past? because that's really ****ing dumb.
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Old 07-17-2017, 01:51 PM   #46011
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

If were in a cyber war lets not try in win it or protect our elections for it because of our history...
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Old 07-17-2017, 01:55 PM   #46012
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

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Socialism worked damn well for thousands of years before capitalism was even a thing. There are actually many more centuries of socialism working, and working quite well, in human history than there are of capitalism even existing.
You certainly don't have to agree with bobman, but the paragraph above is just made up. Capitalism certainly was "a thing" by the end of the 18th century under any reasonable definition of capitalism. How many political systems, socialist or otherwise, worked "quite well", especially for poor people, before that time?
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Old 07-17-2017, 01:56 PM   #46013
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

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Originally Posted by +rep_lol View Post
and that's wrong/bad.

is your argument that we should just be ok with another foreign power trying to do the same to us, since murica has done it in the past? because that's really ****ing dumb.
I thought he was just saying that he wasn't surprised by the Time cover about Yeltsin.
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Old 07-17-2017, 02:12 PM   #46014
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

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Hmmm...Francis Rooney (R) just referenced Daddy Trump's decisions FROM LAST YEAR about Jr's meeting and how Trump, being an outsider Rooney can sympathize with, didn't understand the optics of such a meeting at the time.

Is that an oops? Anybody know this GOP guy's background, and whether he would be in a position to have the knowledge he just let slip?

I'll post the segment when it's available later and let you guys decide on what I'm pretty sure I just saw. Poppy from CNN was asking about Trump's tweet today saying again that most everyone would take the meeting and it was just politics as usual. To me, it seemed as if Rooney was so focused on avoiding disagreement with today's statement, that he tried to use the rookie argument for Trump Sr at the time they all accepted the meeting. It didn't look like he realized what he said, though I'm sure he's kicking himself now.
OK, just watched it again. He was talking about Jr in the beginning when he said he was able to sympathize with him as an outsider.

The part that got my attention is towards the end, after the interviewer tells him about today's Trump Sr tweet. He definitely talks as if he's aware that Trump knew about the meeting when it took place.

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Old 07-17-2017, 02:53 PM   #46015
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

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Consider for a moment just how stupid the idea of a nationwide $15/hour minimum wage is. There are entire states whose per capita income is less than a $15/hour minimum wage. The *only* reason to believe that a $15 national minimum wage wouldn't be an economic disaster is naive extrapolation of studies, themselves contested, of much smaller changes. And yet, that's a universally held tenet of the New New Left.
I most recently listened to Chapo's first post-election episode which featured a cathartic tear-into-Hillary-for-everything rant, and most of it was on point but one of their complaints was - and this was, like, the entire burn/point being made to indict her lack of progressivism - "she wouldn't even say yes to a $15 minimum wage". It seems like a bit of a blind spot for the far left, because the most liberal cities in the country, you know, the ones that are crazy expensive to live in, are barely at $15 (SF just hit $14 and will be $15 in a year w/ yearly CPI increases to follow, I think Seattle is $15 now? Berkeley, always a barometer of the far left zeitgeist, will be $15 next October).

If these cities with a high cost of living and super liberal governments can barely get $15 done, how in the **** do you convince bumble**** rural Ohio to do this? Do the economics even make sense in the cheaper places in the country? There was grumbling in San Francisco about restaurants closing and **** when they had to pay their waiters $15/hr, and what do you think they charge for food here versus out in the sticks?
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Old 07-17-2017, 02:56 PM   #46016
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

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The point is that they're not here to be influenced, they're here to do the influencing, you're wasting column space on them
I just said above your post that I don't reply to the Russian trolls for their sake, I reply for the benefit of lurkers who can be swayed by rational arguments.

Unless your point is lurkers who are on the fence don't gain anything from seeing some of their thoughts countered or even ridiculed?
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Old 07-17-2017, 03:08 PM   #46017
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

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The Weeds kind of covered this but initially the bill looked like it was created by someone who just wanted tax cuts and less spending and now after the conservative policy wonks have had time to work on policy makers it's a mix of people who still want spending cuts with people who actually have a conservative vision for what healthcare should look like, but for that vision to happen it requires money. It's still a bit of a mix of both.
Or, the Republican party has been trying to do away with medicaid for decades, and this is the path of least resistance? Let's not overthink things here, if there was actually a vision of health care it would been rolled out and passed in January.
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Old 07-17-2017, 03:47 PM   #46018
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

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It's not fetishism. They cobbled together a pretty decent system with multiple failsafes to prevent a Trump. They just failed to appreciate that in the future We the People would be monumentally stupid enough to blow through all of them.
Bingo. There is no way the founders could have possibly foreseen how much political influence grumpy old white men would manage to weld in the 21st century.
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Old 07-17-2017, 03:53 PM   #46019
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

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Bingo. There is no way the founders could have possibly foreseen how much political influence grumpy old white men would manage to weld in the 21st century.
I don't know, grumpy old white men were the only people who had power when the Founders were around.
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Old 07-17-2017, 04:04 PM   #46020
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

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I most recently listened to Chapo's first post-election episode which featured a cathartic tear-into-Hillary-for-everything rant, and most of it was on point but one of their complaints was - and this was, like, the entire burn/point being made to indict her lack of progressivism - "she wouldn't even say yes to a $15 minimum wage". It seems like a bit of a blind spot for the far left, because the most liberal cities in the country, you know, the ones that are crazy expensive to live in, are barely at $15 (SF just hit $14 and will be $15 in a year w/ yearly CPI increases to follow, I think Seattle is $15 now? Berkeley, always a barometer of the far left zeitgeist, will be $15 next October).

If these cities with a high cost of living and super liberal governments can barely get $15 done, how in the **** do you convince bumble**** rural Ohio to do this? Do the economics even make sense in the cheaper places in the country? There was grumbling in San Francisco about restaurants closing and **** when they had to pay their waiters $15/hr, and what do you think they charge for food here versus out in the sticks?
Meh, I don't know how this gets framed as a new issue these days. Seems to me every time there's ever been a move to raise the MW the right wing has gone ballistic saying that it will cause job losses and bankruptcies yet for some reason it continues to go up.

Of course the right says that about virtually every progressive policy, so it's not a surprise that they do it about the MW too. If they were correct about any of that America would've turned into an economic wasteland back during the FDR administration.
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Old 07-17-2017, 04:09 PM   #46021
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

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Meh, I don't know how this gets framed as a new issue these days. Seems to me every time there's ever been a move to raise the MW the right wing has gone ballistic saying that it will cause job losses and bankruptcies yet for some reason it continues to go up.

Of course the right says that about virtually every progressive policy, so it's not a surprise that they do it about the MW too. If they were correct about any of that America would've turned into an economic wasteland back during the FDR administration.
I don't mean to suggest I support the right's side on this - I support & voted for $15 locally. But it's an issue where geography matters, I think.
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Old 07-17-2017, 04:12 PM   #46022
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

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I don't mean to suggest I support the right's side on this - I support & voted for $15 locally. But it's an issue where geography matters, I think.
We need a maximum wage more than we need a higher minimum wage. Make the CEO's maximum wage some multiple of the lowest paid workers in the corporation and wages will rise.
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Old 07-17-2017, 04:15 PM   #46023
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

Trump: I better say "I think" otherwise they'll give me a Pinocchio. I don't like Pinocchios.

How about you stop ****ing lying instead of blaming the people who give out the lie award? Idiot.

BTW, that would have been my question in the briefing earlier. "Hey Spicer, literally everyone has been suggesting that the President and the WH to get the whole Russia story out in the open for months now. Yet we're still seeing new details and contradictions revealed to the public every couple of days. Why has the WH not taken this advice?"

Instead, we got to hear Spicey say the Fredo meeting was about adoptions, even though Jr's own email proof and Trump's tweets today say it wasn't. Spicer is living in 8 days ago time, because the bull**** answers from back then make them look like better people.
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Old 07-17-2017, 04:15 PM   #46024
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

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We need a maximum wage more than we need a higher minimum wage. Make the CEO's maximum wage some multiple of the lowest paid workers in the corporation and wages will rise.
Or companies will find loopholes in a maximum wage law by giving their CEOs even more neat perks.
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Old 07-17-2017, 04:16 PM   #46025
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Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

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Originally Posted by dinopoker View Post
Meh, I don't know how this gets framed as a new issue these days. Seems to me every time there's ever been a move to raise the MW the right wing has gone ballistic saying that it will cause job losses and bankruptcies yet for some reason it continues to go up.

Of course the right says that about virtually every progressive policy, so it's not a surprise that they do it about the MW too. If they were correct about any of that America would've turned into an economic wasteland back during the FDR administration.
It hasn't gone up since 2009. Also, a jump to $15 would be an increase of 107%. That could definitely have some weird effects.

Quote:
Originally Posted by goofyballer View Post
I don't mean to suggest I support the right's side on this - I support & voted for $15 locally. But it's an issue where geography matters, I think.
Yeah, $15 is reasonable some places but a federal minimum wage either needs to:
a) Account for cost of living by location
or
b) Basically just go for the lowest common denominator i.e. a reasonable wage for a low cost of living area.

(a) is obviously better, especially if you support high minimum wage, but (b) is also fine but leaves the burden on high COL localities to implement their own, higher minimum wage.

Even if we keep (b) it needs to be indexed to inflation.
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