From my cold, dead. hands! Except in Detroit and Chicago - Page 53 - Politics and Economics

Here is a list of every politician who is receiving money from the NRA to make sure guns are easy to own (hat tip to Sam Biddle):

http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/reci...&id=D000000082

12-14-2012 , 03:35 PM

#1302

nullspace

banned

Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 1,858

Quote:

Originally Posted by bills217

A way to deter these types of crimes that might actually be effective: torturing the perpetrators.

Hear me out here. The death penalty is clearly not a deterrent to a crime that ends with the perpetrator committing suicide. torture? That's a deterrent. That's a deterrent to even the nuttiest nut who is still capable of a tragedy like this. Something of this sort requires PLANNING. It requires some degree of cunning. The perpetrators are still displaying rationality in many ways - they chose the school for a reason, they knew how to find the school, they didn't forget how to drive the car to get there, and then of course they rationally kill themselves.

My point being that, even to a crazy person, they must be capable of enough rational thinking just to be capable of doing something like this, that they would be DETERRED by the possibility of being captured and tortured.

I'm not arguing this as a moral solution, since it ends with the govt torturing a person with some degree of mental illness. But would it be effective? Would it save lives? I think it would.

Of course, the obvious problem here is we're giving the govt the power to torture people, which I as a matter of principle could never support, but...aren't we pretty much there already? (see: Obama administration) Most in this forum have no objections to giving govt the power to do all kinds of things that are ineffective to begin with but are nonetheless huge blows to civil liberties...why not give them the power to do something to be effective?

That issue aside - would anyone ITT thread actually be bent out of shape or feel empathy solely at the thought of people who commit these kinds of crimes being tortured? I wouldn't.

I agree with this.

Many of the problems of modern society are a result of governments become too soft on dangerous criminals. The bleeding heart liberals want to believe everyone is a victim. This victim culture is ruining are society.

Some people are just rotten to the bone and ought to be punished.

12-14-2012 , 03:36 PM

#1303

MrWookie

Don't Call Me Meredith

Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 94,159

Quote:

Originally Posted by General Tsao

really not hard to win this one when 'if the teacher was armed this would have stopped in a second' trumps just about any appeal to emotion the pro-gun-victim lobby has (that's you guys)

OK, we arm every teacher. What level of death due to accidents is acceptable iyo?

12-14-2012 , 03:36 PM

#1304

joeyDizzle

banned

Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 2,227

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mondogarage

I'm trying to come up with a PVN-approved style response, but I'm not enough of a troll to move goalposts or post strawmen. I can only aspire to be like you, in that way.

What I want the dialog in this thread to look like is, a simple answer to my question: If now is not the time to talk about reasonable gun control legislation, then when?

You haven't answered that. Nor have you actually asked an honest question of your own.

Right now is the prefect time, while everybody is in shock and disgust.

12-14-2012 , 03:36 PM

#1305

Low Key

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 33,327

Quote:

Originally Posted by rjoefish

He killed his dad at home then killed his mother and her classroom. Jesus.

what did he think, he was voldemort or something?

jesus christ

i hope we at least learn wtf was going on with this guy

12-14-2012 , 03:36 PM

#1306

Case Closed

self-banned

Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 19,112

Quote:

Originally Posted by bills217

No. You're not helping your side, dude. Torture is not a deterrent, especially for people who plan on killing themselves at the end of their rampage.

I would feel empathy for the shooter if he was strung up in the middle of town and tortured.

12-14-2012 , 03:37 PM

#1307

pvn

Guest

Posts: n/a

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mondogarage

I'm trying to come up with a PVN-approved style response, but I'm not enough of a troll to move goalposts or post strawmen. I can only aspire to be like you, in that way.

wow you've really got me now.

* troll
* observe someone calling you on it
* call that person a troll

nice. you should have no trouble finding a job in the ministry of truth.

Quote:

What I want the dialog in this thread to look like is, a simple answer to my question: If now is not the time to talk about reasonable gun control legislation, then when?

You haven't answered that. Nor have you actually asked an honest question of your own.

Go ahead. Let's hear your reasonable (your word) non-emotional proposal.

12-14-2012 , 03:37 PM

#1308

Oroku$aki

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 7,063

Quote:

Originally Posted by Low Key

Only in America could people hear of a lunatic going on a rampage and think the problem was not the crazy person.

Lunatics going on rampages is an american problem. It shouldn't just be that a lunatic goes on a rampage and the general opinion about it is "he's the problem, not america" ad infinitum.

12-14-2012 , 03:37 PM

#1309

kurto

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 17,634

Quote:

Originally Posted by General Tsao

because children are the only ones in schools. yep! you've reasoned this one out thoroughly we can all tell.

its a shame that we can only fantasize about a world where all our kindergarten teachers are packing heat.

12-14-2012 , 03:38 PM

#1310

pvn

Guest

Posts: n/a

Quote:

Originally Posted by 13ball

Like cars and swimming pools? And you think the guns for family protection argument is bad? Wow.

Wow indeed. I know you have trouble following but the fact that those are dumb arguments was EXACTLY THE POINT.

12-14-2012 , 03:39 PM

#1311

champstark

aka starkwired

Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 14,838

Flight taking off, so I'll catch up later. I'm sure we can all agree this is awful and something needs to change.

12-14-2012 , 03:39 PM

#1312

General Tsao

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 30,586

i really wish the media would do a better job reporting this ****

"massmurder #10022910 in gun free zone" would be a great headline to wake you people up and realize what your policies result in.

12-14-2012 , 03:39 PM

#1313

nullspace

banned

Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 1,858

It's hilarious how the pro-gun/pro-liberty people think it's a great idea to arm and train every teacher.

Where do you think they are going to receive their training. I can only think of a few organizations that are capable of mass-scale firearm training: law enforcement and the military.

So, are you suggesting you want every teacher to undergo military training?

I can't think of any better way to encourage the formation of a totalitarian police state.

12-14-2012 , 03:39 PM

#1314

pvn

Guest

Posts: n/a

Quote:

Originally Posted by surftheiop

Not sure if your serious.

Im not a big gun control guy, but arming teachers seems terrible on so many levels. I've heard being a teacher can almost be psychological torture at times, I bet at least once a week we would have some teacher whipping out the gun to get the class silent somewhere in the country.

I'm not advocating mandating that teachers be armed as a policy.

But if there were armed teachers do you think this guy goes to this school?

12-14-2012 , 03:40 PM

#1315

goofyballer

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 70,719

Quote:

Originally Posted by Low Key

Only in America could people hear of a lunatic going on a rampage and think the problem was not the crazy person.

grunching so I may yet be proven wrong, but this is prob the most willfully ignorant post ITT

12-14-2012 , 03:40 PM

#1316

Riverman

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 73,135

Quote:

Originally Posted by Low Key

Ruh roh

But yes, I side with you against the NRA on this issue. The gun show/private sale loophole is a significant issue. Though, it's still federal law not to sell to people you think might be nuts.

He lived in NJ, where it is entirely legal for ANYONE to walk in to a gun show and buy a gun. GJGE.

12-14-2012 , 03:40 PM

#1317

13ball

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 12,912

Quote:

Originally Posted by joeyDizzle

Right now is the prefect time, while everybody is in shock and disgust.

We should wait a week, then talk about it. Probably there'll be another shooting by then, so we might have to wait a while.

12-14-2012 , 03:41 PM

#1318

Low Key

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 33,327

Quote:

Originally Posted by goofyballer

grunching so I may yet be proven wrong, but this is prob the most willfully ignorant post ITT

oh, you're in for a treat

12-14-2012 , 03:41 PM

#1319

FlyWf

It's the other way

Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 58,097

Quote:

Originally Posted by bills217

A way to deter these types of crimes that might actually be effective: torturing the perpetrators.

It's so weird how fringe libertarians often return to these terrifying fantasies about how prisons are too nice. Nullspace's plan to sell convicts into sex slavery, zan nen's plan to televise drawing and quartering...

Quote:

Hear me out here.

Nope. Shut the **** up.

12-14-2012 , 03:41 PM

#1320

Riverman

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Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 73,135

LOL @ teachers having guns. What could go wrong?

Double LOL @ saying 'I'm not saying I support that' after getting called out for supporting the very thing in question.

12-14-2012 , 03:41 PM

#1321

bills217

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Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 7,462

Quote:

Originally Posted by Low Key

Well, this one killed himself. So not a big deterrent.

Sometimes they get caught, though. In any case, they might off themselves sooner to prevent any risk of being caught.

12-14-2012 , 03:41 PM

#1322

nullspace

banned

Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 1,858

Quote:

Originally Posted by pvn

I'm not advocating mandating that teachers be armed as a policy.

But if there were armed teachers do you think this guy goes to this school?

Of course he still goes, he just has to up his game.

Grenades and military-grade body armor would be a good start.

12-14-2012 , 03:41 PM

#1323

Low Key

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 33,327

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riverman

He lived in NJ, where it is entirely legal for ANYONE to walk in to a gun show and buy a gun. GJGE.

we're not even sure how old he was or what kind of weapons he used yet!

12-14-2012 , 03:42 PM

#1324

Case Closed

self-banned

Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 19,112

Quote:

Originally Posted by pvn

I'm not advocating mandating that teachers be armed as a policy.

But if there were armed teachers do you think this guy goes to this school?

Yes. He killed both of his parents and his mom worked there. It is reasonable to assume this was a special target. He went on a suicide mission, so it is reasonable to assume that he was not worried about being killed. The best option is to find a policy that will disarm these people before they end up killing school rooms full of children. If that means a few people don't get to enjoy their gun toys then so be it.