Lol @ the non-Americans itt thinking their opinions matter.

OH YES I DID!

Less than 5%, IMO.

It's not work though is it otherwise there might actually be a reasonable amount of social mobility (which there isn't).

The problem is that today's conservatives take it too far. They think they are arguing in their own self-interest but they aren't.

At some basic level, a safety net benefits everyone because a country filled with riots and looting is not fun to live in. A country where a poor person dies because he cannot afford insurance may be better financially for a wealthy person, but it fosters class warfare and eventually violence.

So in essence I favor a Scandinavian-style socialist democracy because I think it is in my own self-interest. Those countries are safer, better educated, healthier, the people are happier, and the quality of life outranks the US by most measures.

The conservatives are so wedded to their agenda that they are voting against their own self-interest more often than not.

Good point about the social conservatives didn't think about them. Thought about the military spending as an argument against my point, but dismissed it as not really part of govt (I know this isn't entirely logical).

What isn't working? The conservatives being able to hold onto a reasonable amount of what they work for?

I was just watching the debates where government regulation was widely supported to deny employment to illegal immigrants.

I think, like an earlier poster said, it is important to distinguish between Conservatives and modern day "Republicans." A true republican or conservative truly does believe in limited government in all issues and respects the rights of every individual. Modern day republicans believe in limited government in the things they dislike and respect the rights of people they like.

If you could somehow prove (unsure how) that we don't have the right to go to any website we like or play poker on the internet, then I think rational thinkers would change their mind. However, I have no idea how you could convince a rational person of this claim.

The heart of the matter is that liberals believe deeply about the rights of groups while ignoring the rights of the individual, while "Republicans" care deeply about the rights of the majority while ignoring the rights of small groups. Neither side is doing any good, and the rights of everyone are degrading. The only group that is of any importance is the smallest group, the individual.

Agreed a safety net where everyone is protected by daddy government sounds great in theory. However, if daddy tells you that if you don't work he will give you an allowance it may encourages you to not work and live off of his hard work.

For a continent that boasts some of the largest economies it seems odd that none of the Scandinavian countries are in the top 20 largest economies of the world. Do you think the US economy would be so dominate if it was a socialist-democracy?

So then the majority of conservatives are libertarians? I think not.

grunch:

OP is talking about the 5-10% of the population that have extreme views, are strictly partisan, and rationalize away any inconsistencies. (whether he knows it or not)

No, these people won't change. It also doesn't matter that they won't.

Per capita GDP I believe EVERY Scandinavian country is in the top 20, with most being in the top 10.

Can you honestly expect countries with 5-10 million people to have some of the largest economies in the world?

Its no secret that in general the biggest economies come from countries with the most people.

Honestly, this thread is just stupid.

First, OP asks us to accept a highly debatable premise (that liberal policies are generally harmful to the average person), and then asks us what percentage of people who believe the highly debatable premise is true would change their minds if the highly debatable premise in fact were untrue.

I can just see the next thread starter:

The benefits of juice cleanses are undeniable. But if the benefits of juice cleansing were proven to be illusory, what percentage of juice cleansers would stop juice cleansing?

Oh? Seems to me those are the most important people in the entire system. Certainly you expect them to be overrepresented come election time.

Norway 3, Sweden 9, Finland 13, USA 15.

Bahbahmickey: 320 million ppl and enormous natural resources. Yes in any functioning government the US would be a top 20 economy for those two reasons alone.

Bad point.

tree fiddy percent?

Inquiring minds want to know how is it that those damn lazy socialist Scandinavian countries are somehow more productive than the USA...

Oops. Obvious point I overlooked. What is your opinion on question in my last post though. Would the US be such a powerhouse if it had adopted the Scandinavian way?

Yes - for the most part.

(I'm relatively ignorant of the actual nitty gritty of Scandinavian social policies, but still feel comfortable saying yes.)

There are studies where they measure key values of different groups. People are "accidentally" right all the time with beliefs that just fit in line with their values. They typically don't think beyond that, other than making arguments that are meant to appeal to and counter those with different values. For example, to convince a liberal that welfare is bad, you need to actually show it's bad for the recipients or at worst ineffective. To appeal to a conservative, you need to show the cost of it, and generally not show effectiveness as much.

There's not anything wrong with arguing with arguments that are not terribly persuasive to yourself, but persuasive to others. Unless you can get people to change their values, people will choose the conclusion that best fits their own values. Sometimes they coincide (conservatives selfishness/self-reliance values vs. liberals empathy in the welfare case).

In cases where it isn't possible to resolve these differences, separations of societies seem like a good idea. Different cultural values create a lot of conflict and there is value in having separate societies that try to maximize those different values.

The two articles I read (I knew nothing about Scandinavian socialism prior) both point to the fact that the scan countries are more free in many ways to the US. Pointing out things like: business freedom, monetary freedom, investment freedom, financial freedom, freedom from corruption, labor freedom, property rights and trade freedom scores.

They both side noted that while the US is used as a bench mark to the "free country" it is not the best in the sense of being the most free (both listed countries in the top 10 of GDP per capita PPP as better examples of free countries).

Yes but they do have overly oppressive drunk driving laws. USA **** YA!!!!