May Day! May Day! Our Country Is Falling Apart (LC Thread) - Politics and Economics

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May Day! May Day! Our Country Is Falling Apart (LC Thread)

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04-30-2017 , 04:24 PM

SuperUberBob

Not interesting enough

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It's 36 minutes early where I am, but I'm still going with it.

04-30-2017 , 04:34 PM

ScreaminAsian

For President

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i wish you all a safe and productive loyalty day

04-30-2017 , 04:51 PM

goofyballer

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Ontario to run UBI experiment with 4,000 households

One oddity (maybe?):

Quote:

To encourage participants to seek paid employment, the recipients would also be able to keep 50 percent of any money they earn from work

idk if cutting the likely-already-small hourly wage they earn in half is that great of an incentive. Do UBI programs usually have provisions like that?

04-30-2017 , 05:07 PM

SuperUberBob

Not interesting enough

Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 48,217

Finland started a similar experiment earlier this year

https://qz.com/876985/finland-hopes-...-basic-income/

560 Euros per month is a pittance in Finland though. It might be able to pay the rent for a month if you live with roommates outside of a small city but that's it.

04-30-2017 , 05:08 PM

BrookTrout

old hand

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The writing's on the wall - especially when you look at the rhetoric coming from those pitching the UBI proposal in Ontario - the government is coming to terms with the fact that there's going to be a subset of the population who will never attain meaningful employment. Consider it a trial-run of what's to come once automation takes meaningful hold.

05-01-2017 , 08:41 AM

13ball

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Why is Trump taking so long to get legislation passed?

Spoiler:

05-01-2017 , 08:46 AM

maxtower

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Quote:

Originally Posted by goofyballer

Ontario to run UBI experiment with 4,000 households

One oddity (maybe?):

idk if cutting the likely-already-small hourly wage they earn in half is that great of an incentive. Do UBI programs usually have provisions like that?

Not impressed. Alaska has been doing this for years!
https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/a...e-money-alaska

Last edited by maxtower; 05-01-2017 at 08:54 AM.

05-01-2017 , 09:02 AM

JayTeeMe

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Quote:

Originally Posted by goofyballer

Ontario to run UBI experiment with 4,000 households

One oddity (maybe?):

idk if cutting the likely-already-small hourly wage they earn in half is that great of an incentive. Do UBI programs usually have provisions like that?

I think you hit the nail on the head. If they take money away from you when you work then it's not UBI, it's welfare right?

05-01-2017 , 09:13 AM

Sholar

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UBI plus a weirdly regressive tax regime.

Not a great design as it creates a huge incentive to work off-the-books (especially for low-wage work), among other things.

05-01-2017 , 09:25 AM

#10

einbert

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05-01-2017 , 09:39 AM

#11

bobman0330

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Sholar

UBI plus a weirdly regressive tax regime.

Not a great design as it creates a huge incentive to work off-the-books (especially for low-wage work), among other things.

I agree it's not good, but in a lot of places (and no idea if Canada is like this), the uncoordinated phase-outs of different benefit programs can give the working poor an effective marginal tax rate that is much more than 50%. One benefit of rolling different programs up into one cash benefit is that you can uniformly manage how they phase out. 50% is certainly a high tax rate, but there's obviously a trade-off between the rate and budgetary cost.

05-01-2017 , 09:44 AM

#12

einbert

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05-01-2017 , 09:53 AM

#13

hornbug

grinder

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Quote:

Originally Posted by einbert

Did einbert just come out for the elimination of FICA taxes and other forced deductions from a worker's pay? They are entitled to ALL.

05-01-2017 , 10:03 AM

#14

einbert

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05-01-2017 , 10:12 AM

#15

SuperUberBob

Not interesting enough

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That chart (at least the subtitle) implies that Spain is the happiest of the countries on that list.

I lived there for 3 years. It looks happy on the exterior but mention Mariano Rajoy once and you'll change the mood pretty damn quickly.

05-01-2017 , 10:15 AM

#16

einbert

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Yeah that one chart doesn't tell the whole story. For example, from that chart it looks like the U.K. is doing way better than us in income inequality, but I believe it's a significant and accelerating problem in that country as well. It's just that it's _even worse_ in the U.S. than many of these other OECD countries.

05-01-2017 , 11:27 AM

#17

jalfrezi

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^ Probably true from recent reports - the graph is from 2015.

If capitalists across the world don't find a way to share profits more fairly, they'll be responsible for the neo-fascists who take control.

05-01-2017 , 11:42 AM

#18

zikzak

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They don't care tho.

05-01-2017 , 12:11 PM

#19

amoeba

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That chart is completely meaningless in isolation.

05-01-2017 , 02:02 PM

#20

suzzer99

Save the Cheerleader, Save the World

Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 99,984

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrookTrout

The writing's on the wall - especially when you look at the rhetoric coming from those pitching the proposal to wall off Detroit and imprison the jobless - Escape from NY-style - the government is coming to terms with the fact that there's going to be a minority subset of the population who is too lazy to attain meaningful employment. Consider it a trial-run of what's to come once automation takes meaningful hold.

FYP for US version.

05-01-2017 , 04:47 PM

#21

Sholar

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Chart is less useful than it could be due to poorly chosen definitions. One way to tell: the "middle class" in Spain feels quite differently about that status than the "middle class" in Norway (or Sweden for that matter).

05-01-2017 , 05:34 PM

#22

HastenDan

banned

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Quick NYT story on AI impacting judicial decisions.

My feeling is that any such software must be open source, as well as the data used to train the systems (which would have to be done with differentiable privacy ofc).

05-01-2017 , 05:41 PM

#23

goofyballer

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Quote:

Originally Posted by HastenDan

Yeah this is terrifying:

Quote:

The report in Mr. Loomis’s case was produced by a product called Compas, sold by Northpointe Inc. It included a series of bar charts that assessed the risk that Mr. Loomis would commit more crimes.

The Compas report, a prosecutor told the trial judge, showed “a high risk of violence, high risk of recidivism, high pretrial risk.” The judge agreed, telling Mr. Loomis that “you’re identified, through the Compas assessment, as an individual who is a high risk to the community.”

This software is probably made by some entrepreneurs that saw a get rich quick scheme after getting baked, watching an episode of CSI, and thinking about how they could apply some hastily-written AI to some **** they could sell to the government for $$$

05-01-2017 , 06:06 PM

#24

awval999

Election Monitor.

Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 6,269

Quote:

Originally Posted by einbert

Like you honestly don't believe labor is entitled to ALL, right?

05-01-2017 , 06:10 PM

#25

Sholar

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The "algorithm" part is not what's at issue (I am sure it is quite simple); it's the secrecy. (Differential privacy is just playing tech jargon bingo; the data sources here should all be public.)

I have no idea what goes into that "proprietary" assessment, but it is odd how few controls there seem to be. You'd have hoped that one would be able to take the minimal safeguards gleaned from financial/credit scores and redlining and apply them here.

(Lack of quality defense lawyers/public defenders, too, I would guess, to add to a lack of prosecutorial ethics, although I haven't looked into the case.)

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