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Old 05-18-2011, 01:17 AM   #1
Chips Ahoy
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Club Law and Order 2

In the Criminal Justice System the people are represented by two separate, yet equally important groups. The police who investigate crime and the District Attorneys who prosecute the accused. These are their stories.

Let us discuss the politics of the criminal justice system. Post examples of injustice at the hands of police or prosecutors that has a political angle. Then somebody will be along shortly to explain why this particular case is normal and not political. I suppose deeper discussion of the criminal justice system is OK too, if you must.



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Old 05-18-2011, 02:26 AM   #2
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Re: Law and Order 2

Talking about prison rape:

http://www.economist.com/node/186514...ry_id=18651484

Quote:
Sexual abuse in prison is distressingly common: the Justice Department estimated that more than 217,000 prisoners, including at least 17,000 juveniles, were raped or sexually abused in America in 2008.
For comparison, there were about 88,000 rapes reported to the FBI that year. Easily more than 80% of rapes happen in prison.

Quote:
A total of 12% of juvenile detainees, 4.4% of prison inmates and 3.1% of jail inmates (in American terminology, prisons hold long-term convicts; jails hold people awaiting trial or serving short sentences) surveyed between 2008 and 2009 reported being forced into sex. And that is the number of people, not incidents; most victims are abused more than once. More inmates reported being abused by staff than by other inmates.
I didn't expect the staff to be the majority of the rapists.

Bonus material on prison guards:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...510530398.html

Why is this political?

In one sense it isn't. Political views about prison rape range from that's what they deserve to meaningless lip service. Nobody really cares. But prisoners are by definition under the control of the state. Complete indifference to the humanity of prisoners reflects horribly on our society. It's the sort of thing I think about when people talk about how uncivilized those other guys are.
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Old 05-18-2011, 03:19 AM   #3
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Re: Law and Order 2

if 80% of rapes happen in prison and the majority of those rapes are by guards does that mean >40% of all rapes in all of USA are committed by prison guards?
i find this hard to believe, and nonetheless disgusting.
i also wonder if the pseudoprivate prisons have more or less of a rape problem
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Old 05-18-2011, 05:00 AM   #4
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Re: Law and Order 2

There's a selection bias there. Prisoners are probably much more likely to report it when they are raped by guards than when they are raped by other inmates. The vast majority of prison rapes are probably still inmate on inmate imo.
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Old 05-18-2011, 07:10 AM   #5
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Re: Law and Order 2

There's also the issue that inmates don't really have the "right" to consent to sex, so all consensual sex between inmates and guards as well as consensual sex between inmates is considered rape.

Also, many times inmates will consent to sex with each other then due to "rep" issues will claim rape.

Not saying violent Oz type rapes don't occur in prison but it's not as often as those statistics show.
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Old 05-18-2011, 01:34 PM   #6
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Re: Law and Order 2

Guys, sexual assault and rape are not the same thing. It's unlikely that male prisoners are being actually raped by prison guards, and far more likely that a lot of the "cavity searches" and other practices are being reported as sexual assault. And I say this not to defend guards in any way, but because it's important to get this stuff right when speaking to the general public. There's no need to sensationalize any of it, it's mind blowingly and heart breakingly horrific as is.
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Old 05-18-2011, 06:01 PM   #7
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Re: Law and Order 2

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Originally Posted by daca View Post
There's a selection bias there. Prisoners are probably much more likely to report it when they are raped by guards than when they are raped by other inmates. The vast majority of prison rapes are probably still inmate on inmate imo.
This, and I'd add that reporting a rape by another inmate would be considered "snitching" and could end up getting you killed.


I'd guess that the vast majority of the "sexual assaults" reportedly committed by guards were male guards on female prisoners. Some were legitimate rapes or use of coercion to obtain sex. Some were consensual sex that got reported as an assault when the relationship went pear-shaped. A lot were likely bull**** attempts to get even with a guard they didn't like.
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Old 05-18-2011, 06:07 PM   #8
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Re: Law and Order 2

One thing worth mentioning: our system seems expressly designed to turn non-violent offenders who ****ed up once or twice into violent career felons unable to function on the outside. Everything about how prisoners have to act on the inside to simply survive makes it ever more difficult for them to assimilate once they get out.


I, for one, would like to see community service (legit community service, like digging ditches and cleaning garbage off Interstates; not the BS musicians and athletes end up doing) become the norm for first time non-violent offenders. Barring that, they should at least never ever be housed with violent felons.
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Old 05-18-2011, 06:20 PM   #9
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Re: Law and Order 2

How the hell is it possible for someone to be raped in prison? Don't you need some privacy or do the guards just turn a blind eye?
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Old 05-18-2011, 06:21 PM   #10
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Re: Law and Order 2

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Originally Posted by AKSpartan View Post
How the hell is it possible for someone to be raped in prison? Don't you need some privacy or do the guards just turn a blind eye?
There aren't guards everywhere, and they especially can't keep an eye on every cell all day long.
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Old 05-18-2011, 06:55 PM   #11
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Re: Law and Order 2

People in prison are not in their cells all the time. They do work, have some yard time, time in showers, etc.
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Old 05-18-2011, 07:50 PM   #12
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Re: Law and Order 2

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Originally Posted by BigPoppa View Post
This, and I'd add that reporting a rape by another inmate would be considered "snitching" and could end up getting you killed.


I'd guess that the vast majority of the "sexual assaults" reportedly committed by guards were male guards on female prisoners. Some were legitimate rapes or use of coercion to obtain sex. Some were consensual sex that got reported as an assault when the relationship went pear-shaped. A lot were likely bull**** attempts to get even with a guard they didn't like.
I'm a little curious as to how you think the typical case plays out where an inmate accuses a guard of rape without rock solid evidence. I think what happens is some combination of nothing and guards retaliating against the prisoner.
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Old 05-18-2011, 09:53 PM   #13
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Re: Law and Order 2

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Originally Posted by bobman0330 View Post
I'm a little curious as to how you think the typical case plays out where an inmate accuses a guard of rape without rock solid evidence. I think what happens is some combination of nothing and guards retaliating against the prisoner.
Remember that even if there's not enough evidence to convict in a court of law, an accusation (or, even worse, multiple accusations) could easily trainwreck a career.



Part of that was going off one of the prison docs MSNBC is always running. Pretty blond girl admitted that she'd seduce male guards then blackmail them into doing favors. Another said she could sometimes do the same even when she hadn't fooled around with the guard (use the threat of an accusation to get her way). I'm guessing a very high percentage of women in prison have been prostitutes at some time, and an even higher percentage are accustomed to using their sexuality to game the system.
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Old 05-19-2011, 11:04 AM   #14
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Re: Law and Order 2

So it actually turns out that males have a higher staff sexual victimization rate than females. Source, see table on page 13.

I think the idea that the big driver of guard sexual abuse is femmes fatales seducing guards is pretty ludicrous. Almost as ludicrous as the idea that prisoner-guard "relationships" going south is a big factor. How do you think these seductions and relationships go down? It seems to me like it would always have to involve a guard who is looking to use his power to take sexual advantage of women. It's not like they're going to bump into each other in the exercise yard and then discover that they're soulmates over a shared cafeteria meal and a nightcap of radiator hooch.
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Old 05-19-2011, 11:20 AM   #15
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Re: Law and Order 2

See my earlier post. Of course male inmates have a higher "staff victimization" rate, because under the parameters of the study, if a male inmate seduces a female guard and ends up having consensual sex with her, he's just been "victimized".

You really need to google "Prison Rape Elimination Act" and understand what you're reading before consuming the study in the OP.

When you read "Males are victimized by staff more than females" you don't understand what is meant by the word "victimized" in that sentence and your assumption is some closet homosexual guard violently raping some unwilling inmate, when in reality what you have is some dip**** female guard with a GED and self esteem issues listening to a bunch of convicts tell her how beautiful she is and she decides "Hey, I'll sleep with him". Then he gets tired of her, sends a letter to the Warden, she's prosecuted, and the inmate is chalked up as a "victim" in this study.

Some victim, right?
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Old 05-19-2011, 11:37 AM   #16
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Re: Law and Order 2

Apparently I understand the study referenced better than you, because I know it's based on survey evidence, not criminal prosecutions.

In any case, the idea that staff sexual abuse arises because prisons and jails are full of PUAs and temptresses who use their wiles to lure their guards strikes me as really implausible. As the study linked indicates, Table 17, at least half of the males who reported staff sexual abuse reported that they were pressured or forced into sex.
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Old 05-19-2011, 11:46 AM   #17
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Re: Law and Order 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobman0330 View Post
Apparently I understand the study referenced better than you, because I know it's based on survey evidence, not criminal prosecutions.

In any case, the idea that staff sexual abuse arises because prisons and jails are full of PUAs and temptresses who use their wiles to lure their guards strikes me as really implausible. As the study linked indicates, Table 17, at least half of the males who reported staff sexual abuse reported that they were pressured or forced into sex.
Oh, well disregard. I just assumed it was the PREA study. If it's a survey, conducted on convicts, without collaboration, anonymously at that, I'm uninterested in any results. I'd guess in a "study" with that level of control, at least 45% of convicts could fly and at least 75% have won at least one fistfight with a guard, in an effort to protect his reputation.
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Old 05-19-2011, 12:39 PM   #18
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Re: Law and Order 2

DblBarrelJ is an apologist and not really worth listening to, given the ludicrous stories he is trying to pass off here as though they represent the "norm". It's clear that he disregards self-reporting by people in prison, likely because he's not willing to concede that they are people in the first place, and is "uninterested in any results". Note, for example, that prisoners report both consensual and non-consensual sex with guards, showing that they are more than capable of distinguishing between the two. But DblBarrelJ is "uninterested." His attitude towards women speaks for itself.

The survey bobman linked is worthwhile reading for anyone interesting in the subject. MSNBC viewing is not.
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Old 05-19-2011, 12:52 PM   #19
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Re: Law and Order 2

Any survey that claims:


1) Inmates are sexually abused by guards more than by other inmates

2) Male inmates are sexually abused by guards more than female inmates are


is so obviously full of **** it should be disregarded completely.
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Old 05-19-2011, 01:27 PM   #20
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Re: Law and Order 2

I give you BigPoppa, watcher of MSNBC "documentaries" and arbiter of all that is fact and fiction in the world of prisons.

Also, clearly someone who has read the study and its disclaimers (such as the possibility of prisoners under reporting sexual abuse, leaving room for the reader to assume they are more likely to do so when it comes at the hands of other prisoners...)
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Old 05-19-2011, 03:46 PM   #21
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Re: Law and Order 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigPoppa View Post
Any survey that claims:


1) Inmates are sexually abused by guards more than by other inmates

2) Male inmates are sexually abused by guards more than female inmates are


is so obviously full of **** it should be disregarded completely.
If the point of empirical studies were to "confirm" what we think we know anyway, there'd be no reason for doing them in the first place. But of course it's not, and studies should never be dismissed based on the apparent implausibility of their results.
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Old 05-20-2011, 12:35 AM   #22
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Re: Law and Order 2

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Originally Posted by TheQuietAnarchist View Post
DblBarrelJ is an apologist and not really worth listening to, given the ludicrous stories he is trying to pass off here as though they represent the "norm". It's clear that he disregards self-reporting by people in prison, likely because he's not willing to concede that they are people in the first place, and is "uninterested in any results". Note, for example, that prisoners report both consensual and non-consensual sex with guards, showing that they are more than capable of distinguishing between the two. But DblBarrelJ is "uninterested." His attitude towards women speaks for itself.

The survey bobman linked is worthwhile reading for anyone interesting in the subject. MSNBC viewing is not.
So your opinion on the subject is what, that the prison system is just overflowing with sadistic homosexual serial raping guards who roam the prison looking for fresh meat?

If a male guard ever actually raped a male inmate, it would be such an oddity that it would make at least regional, if not national news. Here is a study showing such events are commonplace, which I believe requires some 3rd party evidence, such as convictions, rape kits, at the bare minimum a formal grievance filed by the inmate.

It is at least a reasonable belief to assume that female inmates are raped by male guards on occasion, although I'd wager no where near as often as reported. But to believe that male inmates are raped by guards on a statistical level of anything lower than the odds of winning the lottery and being struck by lightning in the same day is an absurd position.
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Old 05-20-2011, 05:14 AM   #23
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Re: Law and Order 2

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Originally Posted by DblBarrelJ View Post
If a male guard ever actually raped a male inmate, it would be such an oddity that it would make at least regional, if not national news.
ya, that inmate would be tweeting about it all morning and his spokespeople would have the NY Times on the phone by lunch

Quote:
It is at least a reasonable belief to assume that female inmates are raped by male guards on occasion, although I'd wager no where near as often as reported. But to believe that male inmates are raped by guards on a statistical level of anything lower than the odds of winning the lottery and being struck by lightning in the same day is an absurd position.
I don't see how this adds up unless you think ~0% of guards like gay sex.
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Old 05-20-2011, 05:28 AM   #24
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Re: Law and Order 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobman0330 View Post
Quote:
Part of that was going off one of the prison docs MSNBC is always running. Pretty blond girl admitted that she'd seduce male guards then blackmail them into doing favors. Another said she could sometimes do the same even when she hadn't fooled around with the guard (use the threat of an accusation to get her way). I'm guessing a very high percentage of women in prison have been prostitutes at some time, and an even higher percentage are accustomed to using their sexuality to game the system.
I think the idea that the big driver of guard sexual abuse is femmes fatales seducing guards is pretty ludicrous.
Yeah, I think you greatly underestimate how sly women are, particularly convicted criminals.

Have a look at these women and tell me you'd trust your professional honor with them (you can also get a date if you want!):

http://www.womenbehindbars.com/tn/w2pg1.shtml
http://www.womenbehindbars.com/tn/h/hispanic.html
http://www.womenbehindbars.com/profiles/af8213.shtml
http://www.womenbehindbars.com/warnings.shtml
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Old 05-20-2011, 03:20 PM   #25
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Re: Law and Order 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by DblBarrelJ View Post
So your opinion on the subject is what, that the prison system is just overflowing with sadistic homosexual serial raping guards who roam the prison looking for fresh meat?
No. There are two things going on. First, you keep using the word "rape", and probably imaging in your mind that this data reflects a bunch of guards bending prisoners over in the shower. The activity being surveyed is much broader than that. Obviously you are aware of this, but people locked in prison have their personal privacy invaded more or less at the whims of guards, who often need to search for drugs / weapons, including anal cavity searches. It's really not hard at all to imagine that sometimes guards are less than sensitive to the dignity of the people they are searching, and a lot of what they do might be categorized as sexual assault. There can be taunting, insults, denigrations, being a little rough, etc.

You might not think of any of this as sexual assault. Perhaps you believe that most, if not all, of the people in prison have done something that makes them deserve to be violated in this manner on a repeated basis. But that's why it is important to get the viewpoint of the people to who this is being done, to understand that they are still human ****ing beings and that this is their experience being in prison.

Second, this is not necessarily an indictment of prison guards as human beings. See the Stanford Prison Experiments. Putting people in this position in this environment is simply going to lead to a horror story that is as predictable as it is unfortunate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DblBarrelJ View Post
If a male guard ever actually raped a male inmate, it would be such an oddity that it would make at least regional, if not national news. Here is a study showing such events are commonplace, which I believe requires some 3rd party evidence, such as convictions, rape kits, at the bare minimum a formal grievance filed by the inmate.
You don't think inmates have ever made a formal grievance? You really think that the prison warden is going to be like "yeah, we need a rape kit, stat!"??

Prisoner abuse cases are among the most common cases brought in federal courts... so common in fact that various doctrines of "standing" were developed by the U.S. Supreme Court in the 70s and 80s to effectively preclude their ability to bring suit. Just as an example, prisons in California have long been notoriously terrible. Recently, a district court found that they were so overcrowded that it constituted cruel and unusual punishment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by district court opinion in PLATA v. SCHWARZENEGGER
Tragically, California's inmates have long been denied even that minimal level of medical and mental health care, with consequences that have been serious, and often fatal. Inmates are forced to wait months or years for medically necessary appointments and examinations, and many receive inadequate medical care in substandard facilities that lack the medical equipment required to conduct routine examinations or afford essential medical treatment. Seriously mentally ill inmates languish in horrific conditions without access to necessary mental health care, raising the acuity of mental illness throughout the system and increasing the risk of inmate suicide. A significant number of inmates have died as a result of the state's failure to provide constitutionally adequate medical care. As of mid-2005, a California inmate was dying needlessly every six or seven days.
And yet you imagine that for some reason allegations of rape will be carefully investigated? It's ludicrous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DblBarrelJ View Post
It is at least a reasonable belief to assume that female inmates are raped by male guards on occasion, although I'd wager no where near as often as reported. But to believe that male inmates are raped by guards on a statistical level of anything lower than the odds of winning the lottery and being struck by lightning in the same day is an absurd position.
Your continued posting in this thread should serve as an embarrassment to law enforcement and the fact that your opinion is commonplace is testimony to the shameful state of American culture and it's complete lack of respect for human dignity.
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