How should one talk to a Trump supporter? - Page 9 - Politics and Economics

I have to deal closely with a handful of trump supporters for work. It's getting harder and harder to restrain myself from coming out and calling them complete dumbasses, just because the amount of dumb stuff they say about him. I mean, I'll imply that I think they're dumb all the time, and they don't get it, because they're dumb. But I did stumble into an interesting moment the other day, one of the trump supporters was expressing sincere belief that trump was going to do something to make his life better, like he was supporting trump for something more than the racism, and I didn't really know how to take that. The guy already makes like 120k/yr, so he shouldn't exactly be economically anxious.

02-26-2017 , 02:00 PM

#203

stinkubus

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 4,422

Our economy is so credit driven you can't just take someone's income in a vacuum and divine their financial health. Especially if that income can't be replaced in the event of job loss.

02-26-2017 , 09:07 PM

#204

David Sklansky

Administrator

Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 17,096

Quote:

Originally Posted by einbert

Perhaps more digital thinkpiece ink has been spilled on no other topic than "Trump voters: what are they and how do they do work?" written mostly by moderate and often liberal journalists. It's pretty clear what they're thinking. They're not doing too terribly, but they're economically anxious about the future and while they are often employed, they feel that "those other people" are cutting into their value and stealing their business/wages that they are rightfully entitled to. Those other people are immigrants and people of color, but it's unclear by exactly what mechanisms they are doing this. A lot of Trump voters are straight up racists, though not all. Many others were willing to look past his racism. As for the whole being an admitted sexual predator thing, if you ask his supporters that was just locker room talk, and most guys talk like that behind closed doors anyway. When I bring up the fact that any guy I know who said that would get reactions from strange looks to shunning, most Trump supporters kind of admit that I'm right and it's pretty disgusting. But nevertheless, they say, that's what powerful men do--if I were a powerful man, they say, I'd do that too. It comes with the territory.

If you ask them about Trump keeping his promises, they admit "well he's just a politician." It's pretty easy to get a Trump supporter to admit that Trump stretches the truth or even lies, but in the modern landscape where they feel the media and everyone is lying to them, this doesn't seem to bother them. They also admit that he probably won't be able to keep most of his promises, but "at least he talks about us." It's really an act of cultural humiliation for a lot of people to support Trump. And then you have the Supreme Court voters--those vile and detestable "principled conservatives" who voted for Trump hoping to curb abortion and voting rights and put other "conservative" principles into action through the SCOTUS while holding their noses and knowing they were voting for a fairly incompetent man, at best, to lead the United States.

So yeah we've listened. We've listened so much that we're dizzy from hearing Trump supporters go round in circles trying to defend the guy, or more often than not these days just deflecting directly to Hillary and Obama and whataboutism. The time for listening is over. It's time for the majority, who really do believe in democracy, the liberals and the moderates who DIDN'T vote for Trump, to take this country back. There are more of us and we are way smarter than the other guys, that's why people call us Team Grownup. But we're gonna have to fight for it--power concedes nothing without a fight. We're gonna have to make it a battle for EVERYTHING this horrid administration wants to do. We're gonna have to get ready to go to political war for four years every single week. So get your protest boots, put those Congressmembers on speed dial, and let's kick some Republican fascist ass.

There are two errors in this post.

1. Being against abortion doesn't automatically make you vile.

2. The smart grownups are not the majority. Many non grownups voted for Clinton only because they were afraid that Trump would not look out for their best interest. Had they thought otherwise, they too would have voted against her.

02-26-2017 , 09:39 PM

#205

David Sklansky

Administrator

Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 17,096

Quote:

Originally Posted by heehaww

When all they're doing is repeating lies and debunked "facts", I don't see how that can be productive. I've tried talking to some Trump supporters in person recently (one is even a latino transvestite!), and in person I'm always respectful and never heated. I tried your approach but soon realized it was hopeless and changed topics. Immediately they start spouting stuff like, "2 million illegals voted in the election," and it occurs to me that unless we're operating in the same reality, there's no getting through to them. I'd first have to somehow convince them that their "facts" are all wrong, which idk how to do.

The fact remains that if someone has an incorrect thought about any topic your chances of changing his mind will never decrease and usually increase if you let him tell you his reasons for that thought.

02-26-2017 , 09:53 PM

#206

sylar

Ivan Drago's homeslice

Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 20,307

This seems relevant. I remember being super mad when they kept showing "most corrupt candidate" tweet on tv for seeming lay half the airtime over the course of a week.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/26/us/tru...ntv/index.html

02-27-2017 , 02:12 AM

#207

suzzer99

Save the Cheerleader, Save the World

Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 99,984

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riverman

Among dozens of extended family members, I know many who voted for Trump. Mostly comfortably middle class rural whites. They are all too far gone to even try.

It's frustrating enough to argue with people who at least try to demonstrate logical underpinnings for their behavior. These people are not only post-policy, they are post-reality. Hating immigrants and minorities, whom they never, ever interact with, is a core part of their identity and self worth.

BLM has also, for some reason, really really rankled white people who go months w/o seeing a black person IRL.

02-27-2017 , 02:44 AM

#208

florentinopeces

old hand

Join Date: May 2015 Posts: 1,199

There comes a point when listening to them is suicide, as the 1930s prove. Unfortunately, not all arguments can be won with reason, particularly when the wrong side is half the population and well armed.

02-27-2017 , 04:07 PM

#209

suzzer99

Save the Cheerleader, Save the World

Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 99,984

Good article about the desire to punish from both sides: https://qz.com/916680/the-psychology...tm_source=qzfb

Quote:

Crockett studies the psychology of punishment and has found that, rather than accept what they see as an unfair scenario, people will often choose to punish others—even at a personal cost to themselves. This desire to punish, she believes, can motivate those who feel they’re getting a bad deal to vote against the political establishment, regardless of whether the alternative is truly a better option.

Quote:

But if humans have always had this desire to punish, why would it only become so politically obvious in recent months? Crockett’s work shows that serotonin levels affect punishment motivations and, given other research suggesting that long-term stress affects serotonin production, it could be that stressful large-scale events (such as an economic recession) increase the desire to punish.

Social media is another troubling factor, with the potential to further fuel the desire for revenge. “I see social media as tapping into punishment motive in a couple of ways that may be harmful,” says Crockett. “We know that punishing engages the brain’s motivational circuitry and there’s an immediately gratifying aspect to punishment. When you express outrage on Facebook or Twitter, not only do you get the immediate satisfaction of posting that but you also get repeated and amplified reinforcement of that behavior because people like what you say, they share it, they re-post it—and it creates a highly self-reinforcing cycle.”

This behavior is apparent across the political spectrum, Crockett says. “I do see, on both sides, people getting sucked in to repeatedly shaming, expressing outrage,” she says.

“This reinforces itself and it further drives people apart… I’m very worried about the way things are headed.”

02-27-2017 , 04:20 PM

#210

57 On Red

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 5,778

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Sklansky

1. Being against abortion doesn't automatically make you vile.

It does, actually.

02-27-2017 , 04:29 PM

#211

sylar

Ivan Drago's homeslice

Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 20,307

Quote:

Originally Posted by 57 On Red

It does, actually.

It requires a more careful reading. Being against abortion in one's own personal life is fine. Infringement on another person's right to an abortion in spite of great personal and social costs to that person is actually vile.

02-27-2017 , 04:38 PM

#212

dudeoflife

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 3,525

Quote:

Originally Posted by suzzer99

Good article about the desire to punish from both sides: https://qz.com/916680/the-psychology...tm_source=qzfb

do you think there's any merit to posting/sharing FB articles? It seems to be dying a lot on my feeds where there's only 1-2 anti-trump posters(including myself) every day. Initially I got some debate and pushback but as trump's action got more and more ridiculous, i don't get much anymore(probably because I'm on ignore).

Pro-Trump articles have died down to basically 0 though occasionally my wife's racist uncle posts some drivel and deletes it soon after.

02-27-2017 , 04:49 PM

#213

suzzer99

Save the Cheerleader, Save the World

Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 99,984

Well my Mom says she reads everything. And I know my pro-Trump aunt does. So there's that. But mostly it's just about keeping the resistance motivated and informed for me at this point. It's definitely making a difference (the resistance in general), but will be strongly tested with the first terrorist attack. I feel like we can't let up pushing against Trump or his team will steamroll the country when they get the chance.

02-27-2017 , 07:23 PM

#214

heehaww

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 5,081

Quote:

Originally Posted by 57 On Red

It does, actually.

Come on, now, you don't know any pro-lifers who aren't vile people? There is more than one reason someone can be against abortion. If their reason is, "It's her fault for being a slut!" then yeah that's vile, but others are against it because they truly believe a fetus is a living being and that abortion is literally murder. Just because they have a religious/philosophical difference in opinion doesn't mean they're vile.

02-27-2017 , 07:51 PM

#215

dynamite22

journeyman

Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 214

Quote:

Originally Posted by heehaww

don't like abortions? fine, don't get one.
prescribing your religious morality to others is inherently vile

02-27-2017 , 11:50 PM

#216

heehaww

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 5,081

Quote:

Originally Posted by dynamite22

don't like abortions? fine, don't get one.
prescribing your religious morality to others is inherently vile

Generally true, but a belief like "Don't murder people" isn't a vile belief to have. If someone sincerely thinks abortions are no different than killing your already-born baby, imo it's understandable that they might believe there should be a law against that. You can't argue, "Don't like murder? Fine, don't murder anyone."

It boils down to a disagreement about when life begins, and it's not like anyone can prove when that is. To take either side is to prescribe your philosophical views to others. Just because your views (and mine) aren't religious doesn't mean they're not unproven philosophical opinions.

I don't think this is a full derail. I feel like there is too much animosity / divisiveness currently. Just like the blanket statements about pro-lifers being made here, I hear some people I know make blanket statements about all Trump supporters. It's too far imo.

02-27-2017 , 11:53 PM

#217

einbert

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 14,911

You guys are missing the point. Being anti-abortion is acceptable for sure, I can completely understand that. But these same people are anti-voting rights for minorities. That is what makes conservative principles vile.

02-28-2017 , 12:18 AM

#218

sylar

Ivan Drago's homeslice

Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 20,307

Quote:

Originally Posted by einbert

The right wing do not all stand for the same thing. What we know is that it's an (unholy!) alliance of single-issue voters. Conflating them together just unites them. Pro-life and pro-death penalty are logically inconsistent with each other. So is allowing mentally challenged to own guns. Start talking about that, that's what they care about and can understand. Unfortunately they don't give a crap about free college or free press or foreign policy.

02-28-2017 , 12:23 AM

#219

stinkubus

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 4,422

Yup, the real glue that holds the GOP coalition together is opposition to various portions of the Democratic agenda.

02-28-2017 , 12:47 AM

#220

batair

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 16,802

A better example is by closing down planned parenthood and fighting contraception they are creating more abortions.

02-28-2017 , 01:05 AM

#221

stinkubus

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 4,422

Since many chemical contraceptives work by preventing fertilized eggs from implanting you'll find opposition to those amongst the hard-core prolife crowd. The idea that mom spontaneously aborted dozens of their potential siblings during her life time never occurs to them.

02-28-2017 , 01:17 AM

#222

batair

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 16,802

Yeah but the hardcore ones are against condoms.

Its more they see it as a sin to use anything that interferes with the natural process. Still if its murder, putting a condom on should be ok. Guess their argument would be you can fight one sin with another. Ok i guess...but then how did we get trump.

02-28-2017 , 01:37 AM

#223

stinkubus

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 4,422

There's probably no salient fact regarding American politics, from the founding to the present day, which isn't deeply rooted in racism.

02-28-2017 , 04:48 AM

#224

dynamite22

journeyman

Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 214

Quote:

Originally Posted by heehaww

"Life" begins at the moment of conception. A sperm cell and an egg fuse and grow into a clump of cells which gradually develops into a human being.
Imo the abortion debate should be about term limits based on factors such as fetal viability, developmental stage of sensory experiences, etc. Any talk of a 'soul' or 'personhood' has no evidential basis whatsoever.

Wrt the murder analogy it's not just don't murder anyone but also: let's make laws that make sure someone can't just murder me or anyone else without severe repercussions. This involves a notion of personhood that cannot reasonably be ascribed to a fetus in its earlier stages of development.